Why CVs are overpowered

[tjmtjm]

The whole story about the cv rework...
CV Imbalance Is Not An Accident

[Flamespeare]

Flamu may be toxic to some ears and eyes, but his points he made are 100% valid and confirmed by the majority of CCs around the board. He is telling the truth and stating facts, but people dont want to hear that.

[casualsailor]

Origineel geplaatst door Celtic Frost:

As a CV player... stuff I see...

- a ship splits off from the main group all alone and gets special attention from enemy CV and killed, blames the friendly CV for not supporting them.
- DDs having AA/Secondaries on and getting spotted easily by CV, then spewing hate chat toward CVs.
- DDs having AA/Secondaries off and being extremely difficult to spot with planes then teammates demanding the CV spot the DDs. Then spewing CV hatred because the CV did not find the DD in a timely manner.

And as a general observation, in Ranked battles it is very noticeable to me how sometimes a team will become utterly noobish when there are CVs in the battle. It's like they just don't have a clue how to play with CVs in the teams.

Maybe this is because of all the negativity toward CVs and so players find it difficult develop ways to play with them.

You may be right about that. If the population of CVs was higher and players had CVs in every match then perhaps they would be better at playing with them.

That appears to be a goal of WG. As stated in the video, if they spend all this time and resources on a CV rework and the population remains unchanged then that will be considered a waste of those resources.

I suspect the bean counters at WG are looking at the CV population and the revenue generated from Premium CV sales and putting a lot of pressure on development to make this investment pay.

WG finds itself in a catch-22 situation. If they nerf CVs then nobody will want to play them. If they buff them then people will consider them OP and stop playing the game altogether.

And my suspicion is the reason we have not seen Submarines is precisely because they have yet to solve the problem with CVs and fear adding another class to the game will further alienate the player base. From what I saw of some early tests many games ended with only CVs and Subs left with neither being able to take out the other.

[casualsailor]

Origineel geplaatst door Impress1ve:

Flamu may be toxic to some ears and eyes, but his points he made are 100% valid and confirmed by the majority of CCs around the board. He is telling the truth and stating facts, but people dont want to hear that.

Yes. That video is very telling in that when people say CVs are OP that is born out by WG's own statistics; they do more damage on average and have more "battle influence" (which I assume is closely correlated with XP/credits earned.)

Yet despite this they are not as popular as other classes and whenever WG has nerfed them or buffed AA they become even less popular to play.

But the most important point of that video is that underlying all changes to CVs is WG's goal to increase the popularity of CVs. They are not going to make CVs more balanced to other classes if that results in a loss of popularity (as measured by games played and premiums sold.)

And that is very understandable. If they put 10 programmers on the task of a CV rework and spend 3 months doing it then that equates to 5000 hrs and at $40 / hr that's $200,000 spent. The bean counters are expecting to see that investment pay off. If they don't see a positive effect on player retention or premium sales then they are going to consider that investment a waste.

[Flashshark]

I think all is said now!

Flamu put his finger into a wound, and yes, maybe he shouldn't have turned it extensively to maximise the pain.
But he said the truth and of course WG was pissed about it and had to find a solution to reduce the damage to the puplic opinion they recieved.

My last question is now:
Did their investment into the rework pay out or not?

[Glorious Comrade]

I think for people who find CV overpowered can just start playing CV themselves until they get to a tier 6 CV. If you know how CV works you know how to counter them.

For the lazy.

Here is how to counter CV 1 on 1 as BB but work the same for any other class.

- Turn into direction of torps squadron and rocket squadron if you think it is coming for you. Your ships bow should face the torp planes when they drop torps. For BB's slow ass you should do this at 7km+ range.
- Turn away from bomb squad at same distance so your broadside face the plane when they drop bombs.
- and keep turning in the same direction. so when the plane circle around they will end up facing your butt for torp planes or broad side again if they are bombers.
- Turn on priority AA after they droped their first set of bomb/rocket/torp.
- if you are same tier as the CV and fully upgraded BB. under priority AA a full squadron only have 2 - 2.5 chance to bomb you. Each full squadron probably have 4 attack run in it, but 2 of those will get shot down before they get their turn.
- If you are under tier then dont be isolated, stay in AA range of other ship. 3 ship of tier 5. can shoot tier 6 CV plane out of sky before they even drop first set of torps.

Here is how to get wrecked
- be isolated (especially if you are under tiered BB)
- parked behind a island as BB. or just generally in complete stop anywhere.
- get beached as an DD
- ignoring planes as cruiser because you think you will not be targeted ( especially if CV is german)

Unavoidable
- if you are fighting another BB, and plane come to torp you. You should choose to eat the torps than turning to show you broad side to enemy BB. Because it is less damage. a torp set from CV does maybe 4000 - 8000 damage at tier 6. depending on what type of CV, but a broad side citadel can be upward of 20k.

- Play a CV and you will be surprised how ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ fast a full speed BB turning is. (Think of Car turning in a corner. The inside wheel move very little but the outside wheel have to turn 2 time faster because the distance difference to keep pace. A BB turning at full speed while CV plane is at 7km range. iIf CV want to keep pace and get on your broad side. The plane have to move several time the distance to match the turn radius of the BB. all the while eating flak gun shells. This is a huge counter CV trap. There is a lot of depth with existing mechnics already.
- you will also be surprised how fast CV plane dies. If tier 6 plane go after an tier 8 BB 1 on 1. Or against a pocket of 3 same tier ships or more. CV will be out of planes after 3 attack wave and be completely useless for the rest of the game. because it takes 1 minute to regenerate 1 plane.

[casualsailor]

Origineel geplaatst door Flashshark:

I think all is said now!

Flamu put his finger into a wound, and yes, maybe he shouldn't have turned it extensively to maximise the pain.
But he said the truth and of course WG was pissed about it and had to find a solution to reduce the damage to the puplic opinion they recieved.

My last question is now:
Did their investment into the rework pay out or not?

I'm not sure if their investment was wise or not. They seem to put a premium on CV population as the measure. And from what I saw each prior rework resulting in a temporary increase in population followed by it returning to nearly pre-rework levels.

Something I found particularly interesting though is that on two different CC Twitch streams the subject of Flamu's video and the CV rework came up. On both streams the moderators were quick to point out specifically that Flamu had been dropped from the CC Program and specifically for violating the rules regarding stat shaming.

A suspicious person might conclude that a coordinated effort to diminish Flamu's influence was at play. But it could certainly be a coincidence.

[Guara Ookami]

Origineel geplaatst door Glorious Comrade:

I think for people who find CV overpowered can just start playing CV themselves until they get to a tier 6 CV. If you know how CV works you know how to counter them.

For the lazy.

Here is how to counter CV 1 on 1 as BB but work the same for any other class.

- Turn into direction of torps squadron and rocket squadron if you think it is coming for you. Your ships bow should face the torp planes when they drop torps. For BB's slow ass you should do this at 7km+ range.
- Turn away from bomb squad at same distance so your broadside face the plane when they drop bombs.
- and keep turning in the same direction. so when the plane circle around they will end up facing your butt for torp planes or broad side again if they are bombers.
- Turn on priority AA after they droped their first set of bomb/rocket/torp.
- if you are same tier as the CV and fully upgraded BB. under priority AA a full squadron only have 2 - 2.5 chance to bomb you. Each full squadron probably have 4 attack run in it, but 2 of those will get shot down before they get their turn.
- If you are under tier then dont be isolated, stay in AA range of other ship. 3 ship of tier 5. can shoot tier 6 CV plane out of sky before they even drop first set of torps.

Here is how to get wrecked
- be isolated (especially if you are under tiered BB)
- parked behind a island as BB. or just generally in complete stop anywhere.
- get beached as an DD
- ignoring planes as cruiser because you think you will not be targeted ( especially if CV is german)

Unavoidable
- if you are fighting another BB, and plane come to torp you. You should choose to eat the torps than turning to show you broad side to enemy BB. Because it is less damage. a torp set from CV does maybe 4000 - 8000 damage at tier 6. depending on what type of CV, but a broad side citadel can be upward of 20k.

- Play a CV and you will be surprised how ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ fast a full speed BB turning is. (Think of Car turning in a corner. The inside wheel move very little but the outside wheel have to turn 2 time faster because the distance difference to keep pace. A BB turning at full speed while CV plane is at 7km range. iIf CV want to keep pace and get on your broad side. The plane have to move several time the distance to match the turn radius of the BB. all the while eating flak gun shells. This is a huge counter CV trap. There is a lot of depth with existing mechnics already.
- you will also be surprised how fast CV plane dies. If tier 6 plane go after an tier 8 BB 1 on 1. Or against a pocket of 3 same tier ships or more. CV will be out of planes after 3 attack wave and be completely useless for the rest of the game. because it takes 1 minute to regenerate 1 plane.

Lmao no as someone who has more than 60% WR in both Hakuryu and Midway and more than 55% at tier 8 your advice is more than already known and some are outright useless, other than that you are saying from a T6 standpoint where regen is ON your side literally.

When i was grinding ranger for the first time this year i would just pre drop once and attack the tier 8 ship, the plane regen + the returning planes will give you enough planes to launch another full squad of the same armament type again, you just have to cycle trough it and you can in theory never run out of planes due to how the regen is so short.

[Jackson]

Origineel geplaatst door Flashshark:

I think all is said now!

Flamu put his finger into a wound, and yes, maybe he shouldn't have turned it extensively to maximise the pain.
But he said the truth and of course WG was pissed about it and had to find a solution to reduce the damage to the puplic opinion they recieved.

My last question is now:
Did their investment into the rework pay out or not?

That's a tough question. Many more players play and enjoy CV's now. CV's are not so broken now. The population did not dramatically climb, however. But it also did not go down.

I suppose my very arguable opinion is it worked out. They wanted CV's to be more popular. They are. They lost players over it, but they also gained new ones to even the population so it worked out the same.

[juujbee]

CV just another ship play all ships helps keep the boredom away

[casualsailor]

@☠Dark Harbinger☠

You are suggesting the solution to surface ships having weak AA is for them to remain consolidated and support one another against a CV's attacks?

But wouldn't that same tactic work to mitigate the CV's weak secondary batteries?

While it is true a single CV beset by multiple ships is at a disadvantage that is also true for any single ship facing multiple opponents.

That doesn't change the evidence that CVs are designed to deal more damage and provide more "battle influence" than any other class of ship.

[Andysan]

"they create the problem, then sell you the solution" pretty much sums up wargaming.

[Jackson]

Origineel geplaatst door Buddy T:

"they create the problem, then sell you the solution" pretty much sums up wargaming.

Except this is about CV's, and there's no way to buy your way past/around/through them.

[Andysan]

Origineel geplaatst door Jack:

Origineel geplaatst door Buddy T:

"they create the problem, then sell you the solution" pretty much sums up wargaming.

Except this is about CV's, and there's no way to buy your way past/around/through them.

This game has AA focused cruisers and available skills, in order to achieve them you either grind an ungodly amount of exp dying to CV's or use doubloons to convert exp. Get specific AA ships, that's gonna cost you doubloons. This all very much revolves around the CV topic of this thread and wargaming in general.

[Jackson]

Origineel geplaatst door Buddy T:

Origineel geplaatst door Jack:

Except this is about CV's, and there's no way to buy your way past/around/through them.

This game has AA focused cruisers and available skills, in order to achieve them you either grind an ungodly amount of exp dying to CV's or use doubloons to convert exp. Get specific AA ships, that's gonna cost you doubloons. This all very much revolves around the CV topic of this thread and wargaming in general.

I have to disagree there. Those ships you buy for doubloons do not help you grind tech trees which is largely what the game is about. There's many good reason for premium ships, that just isn't one of them - since the reward for shooting down aircraft is almost negligible.

Anyone who uses a premium ship and then just converts all the xp is well.... <cough>.. that's a TERRIBLE idea. I guess if you have vast sums of money and little time I can see the benefit. Everyone has a balance of time/money and everyone has a different line they draw. THat doesn't make it pay to win - it's just pay to save time. Currently most of the best AA ships are free anyway.

The AA perks on captains are generally not worth having either, ie, there are often better choices for the skill points used. Either way, jumping ahead into a 10 point captain for a few dollars is always beneficial. On top of that, you definitely don't want the AA perks in your first 10 points. Either way it comes down to... do you want to pay for this, or do you want to do it for free? THAT is what the game is... Pay to do things faster. I can't recall ever paying for a 10 point captain. I don't mind parting with money for things I can't do for free - but getting a 10 pointer is just too easy/fast to do without paying.

[Nepgear]

Origineel geplaatst door Jack:

The AA perks on captains are generally not worth having either, ie, there are often better choices for the skill points used.

I've been taking the 2 point AA skill on cruisers and some BBs with the first 3 points. Most of their 2 point skills seem underwhelming now with AR moved up. Cruisers don't seem to have much of a choice unless they have radar. What are you running on non-radar cruisers?

Origineel geplaatst door Jack:

I don't mind parting with money for things I can't do for free - but getting a 10 pointer is just too easy/fast to do without paying.

That's probably why we can buy 21 point captains now instead of just 10 pointers.