Loot boxes

[Nelsons other eye]

Just wondering what players think of loot boxes ( paid for versions)
There's a decent chance after the next election they will be banned in the UK or be on limited sale

"Loot boxes should not be sold to children and should instead be earned as rewards for game-play, the MPs said.

"Loot boxes are particularly lucrative for games companies but come at a high cost, particularly for problem gamblers, while exposing children to potential harm," Mr Collins said.

"Buying a loot box is playing a game of chance and it is high time the gambling laws caught up.

"We challenge the government to explain why loot boxes should be exempt from the Gambling Act."

There is growing international disquiet about loot boxes, with a US senator calling for them to be banned and the government of Belgium ruling they were in violation of gambling laws.

China has restricted the number of loot boxes players can open each day. Sweden is also investigating them."

Are they gambling in your eyes ?

[imrahil2]

Meh, we don't need more nannystatism.

[Nelsons other eye]

I know from experience from running a centre that houses GA meetings that each week more and more 18 to 40 yr olds are attending having spent large amounts on loot box style mechanics in games
Now i'm not saying they don't gamble elsewhere or have other problems but it has opened my eyes to a problem I didn't even know was there

[Destaツ]

We did have a thread similar to this one on the official forums. https://forum.worldofwarships.com/topic/197908-these-companys-are-taking-this-action/

Although children do play the game, WoWS generally appeals to an older audience.

[Skakk]

Its not just about gambling money using a credit card.
Introducing gambling effects in games is addictive.
It exposes unsuspecting players and underage people to gambling mechanics.

Should I save my coal up for a premium ship or spend the coal on loot boxes and have a chance of getting items that will award me a premium ship.

These elements can be fun, so is betting on your favorite football team to win a match.
It seems light hearted, but it is gambling and introduces and familiarizes players with gambling mechanics.

I dont think they should be removed from all games. I do think they should be regulated, warnings given to players, age restrictions put in place, and inspectors allowed to see what are the chances of winning these rewards and insure its transperent. For all we know algorithims are manipulating us by giving us a few easy successes early ingame, and then when they have us hooked manipulating the odds to lure us into spending real cash.

[Maj.Tryhard]

By the year 2030 it will be mandatory to wear a helmet and a life vest while eating lunch.

#kidprooftheworld

[Lavian]

Originally posted by MajorSkakker:

Its not just about gambling money using a credit card.
Introducing gambling effects in games is addictive.
It exposes unsuspecting players and underage people to gambling mechanics.

Should I save my coal up for a premium ship or spend the coal on loot boxes and have a chance of getting items that will award me a premium ship.

These elements can be fun, so is betting on your favorite football team to win a match.
It seems light hearted, but it is gambling and introduces and familiarizes players with gambling mechanics.

I dont think they should be removed from all games. I do think they should be regulated, warnings given to players, age restrictions put in place, and inspectors allowed to see what are the chances of winning these rewards and insure its transperent. For all we know algorithims are manipulating us by giving us a few easy successes early ingame, and then when they have us hooked manipulating the odds to lure us into spending real cash.

I've got to disagree with this.

It is about money and the real-world risk tied to that. This is what's being addressed by law, and certain regulations (like percentage exposure) on it aren't something I'm particularly opposed to (the "think of the children" argument and regulations based around that argument I've got to give a hard "no" to though).

If you move away from the line being real-world money transactions being involved, where do you draw the line?

For example in hindsight:

• Persona 5 literally has lottery scratch cards. Should this have been regulated?
  
• Radiata Stories also has lottery scratch cards. Should this have been regulated?
  
• The original Persona has games of chance in literal mall-casinos that reward currency that can be used to obtain some of the strongest equipment in the game. Should this have been regulated?
  
• Streets of Rogue has a literal in-game slot machine. Should this have been regulated?
  
• Tower Unite has an in-game casino. Should this be regulated?
  
• The Binding of Issac has casino rooms. Should this have been regulated?
  
• A number of BioWare RPGs have gambling in them of some kind (at the very least, Mass Effect 2 and Knights of the Old Republic). Should these have been regulated?
  
• Dicey Dungeons is all about random chance and mitigating it through decision making and doing risk/reward analysis to come out on top. Should this have been inspected by regulators?
  
• The entire 100% Orange Juice game is run on dice rolls and card draws with player agency being a matter of picking paths on the circular board, if a battle should be engaged when running into an opponent, when to play cards, and defend or evade when being attacked. As far as I know, in the story mode the computer outright cheats on its rolls in later levels. Should this have been regulated?
  
• Diablo has randomly dropped loot. People spend time for the random chance for specific things to drop? Does this count? If not, please consider that there was a period where you could buy this equipment from other players for real money in an official online marketplace. Should this have been regulated?
  
• If Diablo loot does count, what about loot in Borderlands? Torchlight? Path of Exile? Gundam Breaker? Anthem? Destiny? Remnant: From the Ashes? Fallout? All of these? None of these? Some of these? Should these have been regulated?
  
• What about MMOs like WoW and FFXIV with in-game auction houses and random-chance loot drops from bosses? Should these be regulated?

Most (not all) of these have no microtransactions involved, but they still expose the players to the mechanics and risk versus reward of gambling, often with unrealistically high odds when compared to situations where real money is on the line.

Also, these already exist:
https://www.esrb.org/ratings-guide/
https://pegi.info/what-do-the-labels-mean
Examine the "teen" and "PEGI 12" categories. That's where simulated gambling is put.

Also, as much as I appreciate posted rates in games, this is actually the thing that gets me to spend the most money on random chance. It's when I know my odds and I like them that I'll start dumping money into this sort of thing. Of course, this is just me, and certainly doesn't reflect a person with a gambling addiction, but it's an interesting note. I've put hundreds of dollars into random chance rewards in games and its either A) because I've spent dozens or hundreds of hours in the game and I feel like giving it a shot once, but that's all or B) The conditions of A are true, but I also know the odds, and I like the odds, so I'll dump money in on those odds more than just on a one-off occasion.

When odds are presented I end up doing cost versus probability of my desired drop calculations before I spend, and if I dislike the odds I'll be mildly annoyed and not spend, but if I like the odds, I'll start dumping money in such a way that it'll end up being large quantities over time.

[Karmaterrorᵁᴷ]

My oppinion is if you have real money gambling mechanics then your game should be 18+ same as real world gambling.

I feel like it is exploiting children if its in games without that rating. They know the kids will go nuts for the items. Where adults will see it for what it is.

If you cant gamble in a casino then you shouldnt be able to gamble in a game either :)

[the evil one]

After checking and having mentioned it to our local MP it would seem that loot boxes will fall under gambling laws in the UK soon

[Skakk]

Regarding games that have scratch cards etc.
I am not against gambling, or mock gambling.

The difference is gambling in a game where there is no micro/macro transactions is just a game, like playing cards without cash with your friends.

But if you allow that game to have financial transactions then it is gambling that needs to be regulated.

If I sign up to an online poker game/site and receive $10 dollars for in game as a sign up, but never spend real cash, am I not gambling on a gambling site?
If I am not, then am I on a gambling site? Should that site be regulated even though I am not gambling?

Some say that gambling requires receiving goods or value(US Gaming Commission), so say you need to be able to draw out cash for it to be gambling.
I think in game items have value, I like my premium ships.
Also its popular in China and elsewhere for people to sell their steam accounts or online game accounts. So its possible still to make money from your game account. Either way, making cash or not its still gambling in my eyes and many millions of others.

[Skakk]

Also people saying Kids don't have credit cards, so its parents responsibility to not give them theirs to spend on these sites.
Maybe all countries are different, but these days you just need a bank card. Bank cards act like debit cards and are accepted by Steam, WarGaming and every other site I have spent cash on. Most people in Europe have a bank account from an early age, early teens usually.

By drawing public attention to these 'gambling' mechanics than parents will hear of it and will know to monitor better or that they should. Its not just casino style games that can have gambling.

[Skakk]

Lastly :)

It will not cost game companies any money to allow regulators to come in and monitor their practices and insure algorithims are not manipulated to prey on the player base.

It may prevent them from making as much profit by preventing some underage players from spending on the site, or losing some of the player base that have gambling issues. Maybe they will gain more gamblers :)

I can see banks being required to prevent transactions from accounts belonging to underage players. This wont cut out underage players spending cash, but will limit it. Although at least with regards to WoWS, the player base are mostly adult.

[Jackson]

I feel the state is trying to be a nanny. Kids don't have money unless their parents give it to them. When I was 13 I didn't have money to spend on video games - this makes it on the parents and the parent's decision. We have enough gov't oversight as it is.

As far as the loot boxes - Yea it's sorta gambling, but with WG you USUALLY get what you put in or better. I don't often buy boxes, but the last time I did, I spent about $35 and got about $70 worth of content. I can't speak for other companies - the ones that are mostly drawing the attn tho.

[Skakk]

I agree Jack.
Wargaming are not notorious or actively preying on people especially the young.
My view is that Wargaming being a free to play, needs to have mechanics like loot boxes and micro/macro transactions. They are already offering a free game, with additions for those who want more.
Other companies though like EA Sports (Fifa) for example, charge premium price for a rehashed game each year. Then they offer loot boxes at a premium price, with no declaration of odds of getting want you want/pay for.
These nefarious business practices have led to governments around the world discussing banning or already banning these mechanics. Belgium currently have court proceedings against EA Sports for refusing to remove or regulate their loot boxes in games marketed at youths.

These rules introduced to regulate these mechanics will encompass Wargaming and all other game developers/publishers. What the exact rules are for each country will differ. But one of the rules being introduced is to have loot boxes show the percentage odds of you getting what you want from loot boxes. More will follow. The Online Gaming industry is still relatively young, 20 yrs more or less. The laws are still catching up. You can see it as 'Nanny State', or governments legislating so law enforcement can do their jobs.

Don't ban/restrict game development. Regulate cash grabbing vultures ;)

[Skakk]

BTW I had a lawnmower service company when I was 13, I also did odd jobs like delivering local newsletters weekly along with advertisement pamphlet delivering. I wasn't rich, but felt it for a 13 year old.
What I am saying is that although most youths dont have an income. Most have funds.
Its law in many countries that children receive weekly pocket money.

[Skakk]

Anyone still on the fence regarding new legislation to regulate 'possible' online gambling, or opposed to it, please watch this you tube video.

https://youtu.be/ycz3U1HDfJo

BTW I'll say it again, I dont think WarGaming have anything to worry about with regard legislation as they have already declared either the amount of loot boxes you need to open to get what you want, or what is in the loot boxes. Plus they are a free to play game so will not be scrutinized so much.