Is the Tiny Tim upgrade worth it?

[slayerfar]

Isn't it just rockets for bigger ships, but still with no power to penetrate the Citadel Armor plating?

[StormhawkV]

Because this game needs rockets that can citadel other ships...

[Torchfire]

If you want to be better at attacking destroyers, then you should stick to using smaller rockets. But against cruisers and BBs, Timy Tims are more effective.

[slayerfar]

Originally posted by Torchfire:

If you want to be better at attacking destroyers, then you should stick to using smaller rockets. But against cruisers and BBs, Timy Tims are more effective.

It just looks like the total damage output per plane is going down from a potential 16.000 to 10.400. Firing Rockets on BB's is, well I hardly ever do it, and firing Rockets on Cruisers is already totally devastating. Broadsiding a Cruiser is 10-16.000 damage, so the Tiny Tims must pack something special?

I usually aim my rockets at the superstructure and not the Hull. It is a bit risky, since you may completely overshoot the target, but on the other hand, all rockets penetrate.

[StormhawkV]

The point of the Tiny Tims is their increased penetration but it's not needed in the first place as you have bombs and/or torps against BBs. That being said rockets shouldn't even be a thing in WoWs. CVs would have done fine without them but WG was desperately looking for a tool that even players who are unable to utilize the already impressive CV arsenal can use.

[slayerfar]

Originally posted by StormhawkV:

The point of the Tiny Tims is their increased penetration but it's not needed in the first place as you have bombs and/or torps against BBs. That being said rockets shouldn't even be a thing in WoWs. CVs would have done fine without them but WG was desperately looking for a tool that even players who are unable to utilize the already impressive CV arsenal can use.

I tend to agree with you on that Rockets are the "Eazee Hit Weapon", but then the DD's can essentially run amok without any fear of retalliation from aircraft. Any decent DD captain can evade Bombs like there was no tomorrow. Rockets is another matter entirely.

[StormhawkV]

Originally posted by slayerfar:

I tend to agree with you on that Rockets are the "Eazee Hit Weapon", but then the DD's can essentially run amok without any fear of retalliation from aircraft. Any decent DD captain can evade Bombs like there was no tomorrow. Rockets is another matter entirely.

You do realize that CVs hardcounter DDs simply by throwing their concealment under the bus, right? There's no need to blap them left, right and center on top of this. Players only started to use rockets after the bomb accuracy nerf. Before there was no reason because HE bombs ripped them apart even faster. And it has been ages since DDs were able to run amok. The days of the Shima meta are long since gone.

[eMercody]

And suddenly this thread has become, stormhawk complaining about carriers. Again.

The increased pen of tims allows you to hit more parts of a ship if say the superstructure is saturated. It also comes with an ever so slight health increase so you are abit more survivable against AA which in these times is helpful.

The HVAR is much better at anti destroyer as you seem to be using your rockets for.

[StormhawkV]

Originally posted by eMercody:

And suddenly this thread has become, stormhawk complaining about carriers. Again.

Threads like this one pop up all the time and not only here. Players have completely unreasonable expectations of what a CV should be able to do. Like citadelling ships with what is essentially an HE shell and when they give a completely wrong picture of the events that brought us here I will always correct them.

[Formous]

Originally posted by StormhawkV:

The point of the Tiny Tims is their increased penetration but it's not needed in the first place as you have bombs and/or torps against BBs. That being said rockets shouldn't even be a thing in WoWs. CVs would have done fine without them but WG was desperately looking for a tool that even players who are unable to utilize the already impressive CV arsenal can use.

CV tools? Plenty to be sure. Impressive? That must be some good weed you are smoking.

[StormhawkV]

Originally posted by Formous:

CV tools? Plenty to be sure. Impressive? That must be some good weed you are smoking.

They don't have to risk their ship to influence the battle, can strike anywhere on the map, nullify concealment, rebuild their main weapons over time, deny all sorts of low HP plays and have access to gameplay mechanics that make them partially immune to AA. All of this hasn't changed over the course of the rework. The only thing that has changed after the most recent AA buff are their numbers which proves that people played them because the class allowed them to overperform not because their playstyle is interesting.

[Formous]

Originally posted by StormhawkV:

Originally posted by Formous:

CV tools? Plenty to be sure. Impressive? That must be some good weed you are smoking.

They don't have to risk their ship to influence the battle, can strike anywhere on the map, nullify concealment, rebuild their main weapons over time, deny all sorts of low HP plays and have access to gameplay mechanics that make them partially immune to AA. All of this hasn't changed over the course of the rework. The only thing that has changed after the most recent AA buff are their numbers which proves that people played them because the class allowed them to overperform not because their playstyle is interesting.

Also fundamentally untrue. The ship itself is not what is combat effective, but the planes. In fact, CV risk far more in these terms then any other vessel. If anything, DD are the most over performing class, nearly twice as much as a BB or Cruiser, which are roughly equal. CV are higher statistically because only the good CV players are still playing CV, padding the actual stats. There is nothing easy about CV gameplay, and it is heavily lopsided the higher tiers you go.

Also rebuilding weapons is the exact same any other ship does. A BB's turret repairs, a DD's torpedos repair. A DD shouldnt even be capable of the volleys they do in this game, but that is selective on your own part.

[StormhawkV]

Originally posted by Formous:

Also fundamentally untrue. The ship itself is not what is combat effective, but the planes. In fact, CV risk far more in these terms then any other vessel.

LMAO do you really believe this?? All ships use up their HP over the course of a battle. They go through their limited consumables, lose AA mounts etc. The CV doesn't have to deal with any of these game mechanics behind his rock. You need to be seriously detached from reality to make such a statement.

Originally posted by Formous:

If anything, DD are the most over performing class, nearly twice as much as a BB or Cruiser, which are roughly equal. CV are higher statistically because only the good CV players are still playing CV, padding the actual stats. There is nothing easy about CV gameplay, and it is heavily lopsided the higher tiers you go.

You can go to any stat tracking site to learn that your assessment is wrong. CVs are played by people of all skill levels and still have twice the average damage of a DD and several times the spotting damage.

Originally posted by Formous:

Also rebuilding weapons is the exact same any other ship does. A BB's turret repairs, a DD's torpedos repair. A DD shouldnt even be capable of the volleys they do in this game, but that is selective on your own part.

Because realism, right? So how would you like your BBs to have an average hit probability of 3% with their main battery? And no, the last time I permanently lost a torp launcher it didn't repair itself.

[Donegali]

Originally posted by Formous:

but that is selective on your own part.

When you yourself are so biased towards CV's and anti-DD, you cant really go about accusing other people of having a bias and expect to be taken seriously.

[Formous]

Originally posted by Donegali:

Originally posted by Formous:

but that is selective on your own part.

When you yourself are so biased towards CV's and anti-DD, you cant really go about accusing other people of having a bias and expect to be taken seriously.

Far from it. I am not Anti DD. I am rather against the mass hysteria surrounding CV, and a lot of those hysterical or illogical people are DD drivers themselves. I personally have few issues with DDs themselves, beyond them getting buffed every single patch against literally the whole game itself, and being the second best performing class in the game.

But the myth about CV not risking health is absurd. Their combat potential is exclusively their planes. They get cocky and lose those, it's Game over for any cv. CV have next to no personal protection that isn't AA, they have the worst detection in the whole game, and can't defend themselves against anything on their own. And I don't argue they should. But a BB or Cruiser can easily out dps a Carrier at all turns. Remember, Only a DD with 3-4 torps can sink another ship entirely in seconds, or only a BB can land a citadel and sink any other vessel in a single volley. Skills a CV can't perform. Cruisers are a severe annoyance for aa, but thats a lot of back and forth between the cv and the cruiser enemy.

Also to the guy above, The planes are the real CV's health. The ship itself is just a hyper expensive xp pinata that the CV driver must cautiously move around the map. Luring the planes into AA cripples the cv more then any other mistake a ship could make, short of literally driving into the heart of a enemy fleet or a BB going around a island he should know a DD is lurking behind. A Smart CV thus has to play a very specific way to maintain effectiveness. Despite AA being OP, particularly at t10 (thank god t6 remains fairly balanced, however thats happened), I am adjusting my own strategies but there are some really hard limits to what I, as a CV driver, can really do to defend myself. I can count on my hands the number of times I have survived a DD quite literally driving in a near straight line at my cv, despite repeated attacks against him and SOSing my team, which has a even lower success rate of helping kill a DD then my blitzkrieg air attack against the DD has to work. Have I gotten Better? Yes. Quite.

The issue though Donegail is that I don't take favoritism into my factoring. I DO recognize DD have a big issue with being spotted and nuked, but Let me propose this as a counter fact.

AA has been made so deadly and DBs and torps nerfed so hard that the only remaining Viable Target Are the DD themselves. Beyond a DD's obvious spotting and tactical Scifi Stealth fields, Every other vessel in this game, specifically t9 and 10m, has Garnered a protective AA field so deadly that to attack them at all is tantamount to suicide. No sane player would pick a BB over a DD to attack right now given the choice. Mostly because attacking the DD, beyond the game tactical advantage, is the only real shot of not losing everything to your name in a single pass.

As I told another person, the Worchester, Des Moines, and Minotaur have no distinct identity from the perspective of a CV from any other vessel in the same tiers, save a DD, because their AA stats are so effective as to be near identical. Sure, the Mino IS better then the Iowa, but their effectiveness is so on par with each other in actual outcome both vessels may as well be Minos. Discounting their gun damages to other vessels and tonnage, of course.

The end result of this is that the CV must pick the DD to kill or waste time and the lives of his allies. Sure, that weakened BB is a viable target, but he's escorted by another ship whom together make the attack impossible. So why bother him, when I can go tip that DD knife fight in my side's favor. My BBs can tank the shells from that weak BB or kill it themselves fine enough without me helping them. Add in that the CV is the best counter to a DD, and both teams in a match will beg the CV to target the DDs because of the decisive advantage that confers. By empowering AA to it's levels, DD have been universally made the sole remaining viable targets at the early to mid game for any CV driver. If you want to fix the Cv v DD issues, you need to also examine the battle flow and what CV are expected to deal with. Make every option so hard as to be suicidal (see the complete squadron destruction for 1 single attack), save attacking a DD which tend to be weaker AA, then the DD is all that's left to the CV to target for most of the game.

So no, I am not Anti DD. I am actually coming from a far more global perspective of game design and have spent a lot of time trying to figure things out. As a CV main, I have listed my observations regarding why I personally must pick the DD first and foremost compared to all other targets. I don't like having my options literally snipped like this, I rather harass a volcano cruiser or a BB at times and leave the DDs to their game more, but it's become so hard that this just is not a realistic expectation.

If you get this far, thanks. -Formous

[slayerfar]

Originally posted by Formous:

Originally posted by Donegali:

When you yourself are so biased towards CV's and anti-DD, you cant really go about accusing other people of having a bias and expect to be taken seriously.

Far from it. I am not Anti DD. I am rather against the mass hysteria surrounding CV, and a lot of those hysterical or illogical people are DD drivers themselves. I personally have few issues with DDs themselves, beyond them getting buffed every single patch against literally the whole game itself, and being the second best performing class in the game.

But the myth about CV not risking health is absurd. Their combat potential is exclusively their planes. They get cocky and lose those, it's Game over for any cv. CV have next to no personal protection that isn't AA, they have the worst detection in the whole game, and can't defend themselves against anything on their own. And I don't argue they should. But a BB or Cruiser can easily out dps a Carrier at all turns. Remember, Only a DD with 3-4 torps can sink another ship entirely in seconds, or only a BB can land a citadel and sink any other vessel in a single volley. Skills a CV can't perform. Cruisers are a severe annoyance for aa, but thats a lot of back and forth between the cv and the cruiser enemy.

Also to the guy above, The planes are the real CV's health. The ship itself is just a hyper expensive xp pinata that the CV driver must cautiously move around the map. Luring the planes into AA cripples the cv more then any other mistake a ship could make, short of literally driving into the heart of a enemy fleet or a BB going around a island he should know a DD is lurking behind. A Smart CV thus has to play a very specific way to maintain effectiveness. Despite AA being OP, particularly at t10 (thank god t6 remains fairly balanced, however thats happened), I am adjusting my own strategies but there are some really hard limits to what I, as a CV driver, can really do to defend myself. I can count on my hands the number of times I have survived a DD quite literally driving in a near straight line at my cv, despite repeated attacks against him and SOSing my team, which has a even lower success rate of helping kill a DD then my blitzkrieg air attack against the DD has to work. Have I gotten Better? Yes. Quite.

The issue though Donegail is that I don't take favoritism into my factoring. I DO recognize DD have a big issue with being spotted and nuked, but Let me propose this as a counter fact.

AA has been made so deadly and DBs and torps nerfed so hard that the only remaining Viable Target Are the DD themselves. Beyond a DD's obvious spotting and tactical Scifi Stealth fields, Every other vessel in this game, specifically t9 and 10m, has Garnered a protective AA field so deadly that to attack them at all is tantamount to suicide. No sane player would pick a BB over a DD to attack right now given the choice. Mostly because attacking the DD, beyond the game tactical advantage, is the only real shot of not losing everything to your name in a single pass.

As I told another person, the Worchester, Des Moines, and Minotaur have no distinct identity from the perspective of a CV from any other vessel in the same tiers, save a DD, because their AA stats are so effective as to be near identical. Sure, the Mino IS better then the Iowa, but their effectiveness is so on par with each other in actual outcome both vessels may as well be Minos. Discounting their gun damages to other vessels and tonnage, of course.

The end result of this is that the CV must pick the DD to kill or waste time and the lives of his allies. Sure, that weakened BB is a viable target, but he's escorted by another ship whom together make the attack impossible. So why bother him, when I can go tip that DD knife fight in my side's favor. My BBs can tank the shells from that weak BB or kill it themselves fine enough without me helping them. Add in that the CV is the best counter to a DD, and both teams in a match will beg the CV to target the DDs because of the decisive advantage that confers. By empowering AA to it's levels, DD have been universally made the sole remaining viable targets at the early to mid game for any CV driver. If you want to fix the Cv v DD issues, you need to also examine the battle flow and what CV are expected to deal with. Make every option so hard as to be suicidal (see the complete squadron destruction for 1 single attack), save attacking a DD which tend to be weaker AA, then the DD is all that's left to the CV to target for most of the game.

So no, I am not Anti DD. I am actually coming from a far more global perspective of game design and have spent a lot of time trying to figure things out. As a CV main, I have listed my observations regarding why I personally must pick the DD first and foremost compared to all other targets. I don't like having my options literally snipped like this, I rather harass a volcano cruiser or a BB at times and leave the DDs to their game more, but it's become so hard that this just is not a realistic expectation.

If you get this far, thanks. -Formous

I just got Uptiered 3 times in a row in my Lexington. Last time, I just suicided foreward since it is cheaper than losing planes to Tier X Death Star AA.

"Spot", I hear you say, well most Tier X ships have AA that reach almost as far as the spotting range of their ship. And in any case, a carrier reduced to being a human controlled spotter plane is no carrier at all.

I totally agree with you Formous. At Tier 8, CV's become near redundant. When uptiered, they become completely redundant. There is no role for them to fill, except wait to get killed. Launching planes just makes the wait more expensive.