jav nerf was kind of inconsequential

[Asbestos]

javs were never that great in the first place and lets be real this nerf has been a long time coming. javs were op cuz they cut straight through hordes (when they were in lines which is somewhat niche) and they ♥♥♥♥♥♥ up cw's, and overall theyre basically the same but with worse breakpoints, putting them more on par with keris other options. imo theyve only ever been a decent sidegrade to the longbow on builds with low/no ammo sustain. Moonbow was and still is the better no ammo weapon. mfs just too impatient to let DoT work lol. talkin cata and legend i dont fw modded difficulties.

[Chizakura]

Feels like I've been picking a lot of fights in this board so I want to be a bit more constructive with you since you seem... less belligerent.

But, the premise that, "javs were never that great in the first place" and "lets be real this nerf has been a long time coming" seem contradictory, no? I don't disagree for the most part since, in legend, just about any weapon can be made to work and in cata where javs could only 1 sbs 3 specials meant you needed 2/3 of your 'mag' to kill 1 special before you had to reload as 4 and 5 specials go whizzing by is just not optimal hence I wouldn't use javs in cata unless I was playing ws is objectively terrible even if you had 'infinite' ammo.

But, if they were never that great in the first place, why the nerf? I mentioned this in many other threads, but how many people are we talking that were utterly aggrieved by the javelin? That weapon that could only put its infinite cleave to bear if it were in a straight line in some place like Hunger in the Dark? Whose character has next to no weapons with great aoe/cleave anyway and this was really the only one?

And if they were only ever a side grade to the longbow and they've been nerfed below said side great, that makes them a downgrade now, no? What's more, what are your ranged options for an elf now, generally speaking? Sure, WS can make just about anything work, but that's b/c of her talent set, not the power of the weapon. We can punt the jav now b/c after being a sidegrade for so long, they got nerfed so, by definition, they are a downgrade now.

Swiftbow? Not practical unless you're a WS. Hagbane? Similar to WS in its status of usefulness being tied to WS. Xbow and staff are career specific so they're out (and staff is great, but xbow is meh; why you rarely see a shade with it). Mfb, you seem to like, but I do not. Kind of the same problem as jav actually. At legend, works ok, in cata, it can only 1sbs *1* special. Which means you have to quickfire and quick charge fire for everything else. That means, at most, you might be able to deal with 3 specials before you run dry.
And, when you do, there's nothing to be done about it. You can't conserve energy with conservative shooter, can't speed up its regen through talents or skills. It's even a straight up downgrade for WS, for once, b/c she gets no benefit for ammo increase with her innate ability!

So, across all careers, the consensus is likely to be old, reliable longbow. To me, that says way more about poor ranged designs all around rather than 1 thing that was, at best, a side grade to the long bow. Which has... now been nerfed.

[Asbestos]

im gonna be real i havent been playing a lot of cata recently, so memory's fuzzy on how good anything besides mfb and lb are.

true totally contradicted myself. I meant the cleave nerfs been a long time coming, thats what i recall most people complaining about. That and the ff damage but thats a player issue tbh. Honestly, aside from the cleave i dont think that javs really needed a nerf. They were a decent sidegrade to lb thats now just a worse lb with "infinite" ammo. Works almost identically in legend but i imagine theyre even worse in cata now, and if memory serves they were never great in cata in the first place. at least i didnt like them that much, but ive never really liked them on legend either.

I personally think the elf has better ranged options than most people give her credit. mfb can one tap most specials if u let DOT tick on headshots, but thats not entirely realistic 100% of the time. In my experience, I usually don't run out of shots on it frequently, but i tend to run it on shade or HM, which arent the team's dedicated special snipers. (on ws, running it with double shot on melee kill is fun but i havent tried that on cata yet). Shade can make hagbane work if u go for bloodfletcher but its suboptimal. Barrage hagbane is so wonderful though so i try to make it work. Swiftbows not great on cata iirc, but you can really force it on hm if you take ammo over bcr with scrounger and crit talents (mediocre build but theres worse ig). Honestly, if not for cata id say the elfs weapons are balanced pretty well. Javs are in this awkward worse than longbow but "infinite" ammo spot, similar to mfb, but now mfb is more firmly cemented in my loadouts cuz javs are just worse.

u right not completely inconsequential like i thought, they definitely overtuned it a bit. i like seeing it more on par with her other weapons, but longbow definitely stands apart from them in almost every regard.

[Asbestos]

off topic but have u tried the new elven axe? personally really like. new attack order ♥♥♥♥♥ and half cost pushes :)

[NekousagiKorouYTttv]

The trash horde cleave is gone, you can pierce like 1-2 dudes now, but the damage and versatility overall feels the same to me. Javelin is still the best ranged option that lets you do everything with infinite ammo, it now just requires 1 more shot in some cases. It feels fair, unlike most other things still in the game or in this patch.

[Dixu]

Originally posted by Asbestos:

Moonbow was and still is the better no ammo weapon. mfs just too impatient to let DoT work lol.

Define better, jav could reach the breakpoint for oneshotting gun/flame rat on cata while moonbow needed two shots. Now both weapons need two shots to kill specials. actually I'm not 100% sure about jav's long range breakpoints, I feel like I've had a stormer take 3 before dying The difference is that the special is killed the moment you hit that second projectile instead of having to wait crucial seconds for the DoT to do its work.
I don't think either weapon was/is better at sniping specials, they were simply different. Jav is slow but powerful, has air time and a trajectory. Whereas moonbow is quick and technically hitscan but takes time to finish the kill, you also don't need to worry about reloading.
Personally I'd want to see moonbow to still be able to oneshot specials with one fully charged bodyshot but in exchange significantly increase the time the DoT takes to kill.

[Chizakura]

Originally posted by Asbestos:

off topic but have u tried the new elven axe? personally really like. new attack order ♥♥♥♥♥ and half cost pushes :)

Haven't had the chance to try it out and not very likely to. They nerfed 3 of my mains (OE, GK, Shade) and it kinda has me deflated. Never mind those poor BH users, too.

Btw, I say OE b/c, yeah, I had a pretty unique and non-mainstream build that was so much fun, but the recent change utterly borked it in way that I can't work around so... yeah... Not a fun day for the OE for me, either.

The ironic thing about the OE situation is that a lot of people are saying it's op now. So, I see two paths. They don't revert the changes and keep things as is (doesn't seem likely b/c of how op it sounds to be) and I can never use my old build again. They nerf the current 'op' OE in which case, I don't get to play my old build *and* the current engi gets nerfed anyway.

Either way, the way these updates have gone is kinda... horrendous from my perspective.

[Neutral Effect]

Originally posted by NekousagiKorouYTttv:

The trash horde cleave is gone, you can pierce like 1-2 dudes now, but the damage and versatility overall feels the same to me. Javelin is still the best ranged option that lets you do everything with infinite ammo, it now just requires 1 more shot in some cases. It feels fair, unlike most other things still in the game or in this patch.

Hey, glad to see you came to similar conclusions. I recall you weren't particularly thrilled about the changes earlier so it's nice to see you're actually trying staff out and not just screeching loke most other unhappy people do. Kudos to you sir!

[DwieSzopyJackson]

Originally posted by Dixu:

Originally posted by Asbestos:

Moonbow was and still is the better no ammo weapon. mfs just too impatient to let DoT work lol.

(...) moonbow is quick and technically hitscan but takes time to finish the kill, you also don't need to worry about reloading.

Just so you know, dropping a word 'technically' inside BS statement doesn't make it any less BS. Moonfire is a projectile weapon, it's not hitscan, by definition of the word 'hitscan'

[Dixu]

Originally posted by DwieSzopyJackson:

Originally posted by Dixu:

(...) moonbow is quick and technically hitscan but takes time to finish the kill, you also don't need to worry about reloading.

Just so you know, dropping a word 'technically' inside BS statement doesn't make it any less BS. Moonfire is a projectile weapon, it's not hitscan, by definition of the word 'hitscan'

It is technically hitscan, it shoots where you aim without trajectory but has tiny air time. Same way say Saltz pistols work.

[DwieSzopyJackson]

Originally posted by Dixu:

Originally posted by DwieSzopyJackson:

Just so you know, dropping a word 'technically' inside BS statement doesn't make it any less BS. Moonfire is a projectile weapon, it's not hitscan, by definition of the word 'hitscan'

It is technically hitscan, it shoots where you aim without trajectory but has tiny air time. Same way say Saltz pistols work.

I tested it, the hit confirmation clearly has a delay. I'm not 100% convinced if the damage is applied instantly, it might be. But it's definitely not like Brace of Pistols, which has 0 delay.

[Dahv]

you must be a recruit player if you think javelins werent that good. stay in your lane bozo

[veracsthane]

Originally posted by NekousagiKorouYTttv:

The trash horde cleave is gone, you can pierce like 1-2 dudes now, but the damage and versatility overall feels the same to me. Javelin is still the best ranged option that lets you do everything with infinite ammo, it now just requires 1 more shot in some cases. It feels fair, unlike most other things still in the game or in this patch.

which means thanks to reload its the single worse ranged elf weapon and no they wont ever buff that reload speed because they put it slow and buggy as hell for good reason.

[Dixu]

Originally posted by DwieSzopyJackson:

Originally posted by Dixu:

It is technically hitscan, it shoots where you aim without trajectory but has tiny air time. Same way say Saltz pistols work.

I tested it, the hit confirmation clearly has a delay. I'm not 100% convinced if the damage is applied instantly, it might be. But it's definitely not like Brace of Pistols, which has 0 delay.

BoP has a delay, try shooting a distant target

[BIG E.]

Longbow was the best ranged weapon on kerillian anyways.

I am completely uneffected by javelin changes.

They just made a bad ranged weapon even worse lol.

[BIG E.]

Originally posted by Dahv:

you must be a recruit player if you think javelins werent that good. stay in your lane bozo

Never used it on 200%.

Longbow is BiS since the great moonbow nerf.