Bardin best ranged weapon versus ?

[Corvo]

Someone said pistol , is it true , i feel like the crossbow is so weak and the longgun too

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Pistol has the same base damage as the handgun but much more damage dropoff with distance.

Crossbow is quite good on BH because it 1sbs on a crit, and bh can easily guarantee crits.

However the best ones in my experience are:

brace of pistols on saltzpyre - very little to no bloom from damage taken, so you can kill ratlings who are shooting directly at you which doesn't work with a crossbow.

javelin - low bloom from damage, high damage per hit, and insane boss damage - with a speed and a str pot it melts a troll away almost instantly. also it comes with infinite ammo, but you have to account for the travel time and drop arc.

[Phantom Limb]

Pistol or crossbow. Torpedo works on engineer as well.

[unterzod]

The Masterwork Pistol is pretty good, but I prefer the Handgun for a few reasons:

• The pistol's shot preparation time is long enough for the enemy to take cover
  
• Accuracy at long range is quite a serious problem.
  
• There is very little benefit from rapid fire as it is rarely applicable anywhere.

When meeting the hook, every split second is important and preparing for the shot is a big problem, even if you try to use the speed mode, it is still slower. Pacmaster is more likely to grab you or disappear from sight with an ally during this time. Ratlings have adapted well to cover and hide quickly. Here again, time plays an important role and rapid fire is no longer applicable at all. In general, these preparation timings are too noticeable.

Handgun always gives you a confident and fast shot, which also staggers armored specials, who will require two shots. I think I exaggerate, but preparing a pistol shot takes about the same time as reloading the Handgun.

Dragging it just for the sake of meeting the boss is a bad idea, because an experienced Troll will not get close enough to you anyway, and if he does, rapid shooting will become dangerous. In general, the pistol loses its relevance in versus, since its boss-killer and elite-killer advantages do not shine here.

I would even say that the Grudge-Raker is preferable to the pistol, but the difficulty in closing the long distance is a big problem. The crossbow is not only weak, but also does not stagger when fired.

[NeloDante]

As Range Veteran I have been using both, the handgun and the pistol. I prefer the pistol. Sure, it has this "focus" to fire and has drop off damage but let's go over it:
- The focus might be a negative but the penetration makes sure that if a random rat gets on the way of the packmaster that's about to grab me (or a teammate) doesn't get saved and actually gets shot.
- The damage fall off is a negative but usually you DON'T WANT TO KILL the gunners that are so far away, they barely deal any damage to the team and the worst thing they can really do is slightly slow you down or stop resses. If you have a shield, you can res anyways and meanwhile the movement speed is indeed annoying, IT IS BETTER TO LEAVE THAT GUNNER ALIVE than to let the player reroll for a more dangerous combination.

I cannot count the amount of times that, by leaving Globs and gunners alive when I was the last man standing, that I ended up doing full objectives alone and managed to survive until the end as Handmaiden. No disablers? Don't mind me, I'll just dash through everything, pass through the globes, block the gunners fire etc.

Although the true OP bardin is IronBreaker with Trollpedo though.

[unterzod]

Originally posted by NeloDante:

As Range Veteran I have been using both, the handgun and the pistol. I prefer the pistol. Sure, it has this "focus" to fire and has drop off damage but let's go over it:
- The focus might be a negative but the penetration makes sure that if a random rat gets on the way of the packmaster that's about to grab me (or a teammate) doesn't get saved and actually gets shot.
- The damage fall off is a negative but usually you DON'T WANT TO KILL the gunners that are so far away, they barely deal any damage to the team and the worst thing they can really do is slightly slow you down or stop resses. If you have a shield, you can res anyways and meanwhile the movement speed is indeed annoying, IT IS BETTER TO LEAVE THAT GUNNER ALIVE than to let the player reroll for a more dangerous combination.

I cannot count the amount of times that, by leaving Globs and gunners alive when I was the last man standing, that I ended up doing full objectives alone and managed to survive until the end as Handmaiden. No disablers? Don't mind me, I'll just dash through everything, pass through the globes, block the gunners fire etc.

Although the true OP bardin is IronBreaker with Trollpedo though.

I'm not familiar with the piercing stats, but that sounds reasonable.

As for the rest of the situation, you described playing against weak opponents and most likely we are talking about Against the Grain. However if the ratling takes a position that is ahead of your route, you will have to kill it, because the closer you get, the more HP you will lose. As a last resort, I can always kill my ratling when the enemy's passage through my position is inevitable, because it is impossible to ignore at close range.

[NeloDante]

Originally posted by unterzod:

I'm not familiar with the piercing stats, but that sounds reasonable.

As for the rest of the situation, you described playing against weak opponents. If the ratling takes a position that is ahead of your route, you will have to kill it, because the closer you get, the more HP you will lose. As a last resort, I can always kill my ratling when the enemy's passage through my position is inevitable, because it is impossible to ignore at close range

Yes, weak opponents because the moment they're good the gunners will go at melee range to suicide so they can reroll or obliterate my HP. Those ofcourse you are forced to delete. I'm just stating that there are situations where you want the rats alive instead of dead, because then they are unable to reroll (exceptions of some maps that, as ghosts, you can suicide FOR SOME REASON).

So, going back on the gunners then needing to get close, then that's the moment I use the pistol to remove them. I don't have to try to snipe and waste time, I just move forward with the team and use my shield if needed. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Handgun is bad or anything - just that because of the reasons I mentioned, I prefer the pistol over the Handgun but I'd take the handgun over any other ranged weapon RV has.
However, as I already mentioned, the moment Trollpedo is available, just pick that thing because it's beyond OP. Sure you cannot shoot some gunners and ♥♥♥♥, but you can obliterate anything with "oh ♥♥♥♥" moments and stunlock the Troll the moment he comes down for a single hit.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

Pistol has the same base damage as the handgun but much more damage dropoff with distance.

Does it? Cos i remember it cant oneshot Globe and Pack
And that shot delay is a difference between ability to get a shot without aim penalty.
Damage numbers and damage on dummies doesnt actually show ♥♥♥♥ in this mode.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by Maximum997:

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

Pistol has the same base damage as the handgun but much more damage dropoff with distance.

Does it? Cos i remember it cant oneshot Globe and Pack
And that shot delay is a difference between ability to get a shot without aim penalty.
Damage numbers in stats or dummies doesnt actually show ♥♥♥♥ in this mode.

Yes, they use the same damage/cleave profiles, not sure why people here claim the pistol cleaves more.

However the pistol suffers from much, much steeper damage dropoff curve, so you're very likely going to see different amount of hits to kill even in medium range.

[NeloDante]

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

Yes, they use the same damage/cleave profiles, not sure why people here claim the pistol cleaves more.

Because when I have tested it in game with rats I was able to bypass 4 targets with pistol meanwhile only 2 with Handgun. Unless the testing was done when the rats in front were ragdolling already dead several times, I'd still say that pistol has more penetration power.

[Maximum997]

I like Handgun more.

1) Ability to swap shoot instantly
2) Oneshot of packs no matter what
3) No delay
4) reload talent abuse
5) pinpoint accuracy
6) ability to shield swap shoot under ratling fire
7) shield rats oneshots
8) headshot oneshot

But mostly it is delay. When packs jump on you from the roof that delay hurts.
And when enemies are strafing that delay feels awful too.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by NeloDante:

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

Yes, they use the same damage/cleave profiles, not sure why people here claim the pistol cleaves more.

Because when I have tested it in game with rats I was able to bypass 4 targets with pistol meanwhile only 2 with Handgun. Unless the testing was done when the rats in front were ragdolling already dead several times, I'd still say that pistol has more penetration power.

How did you test it ? Because my testing shows that they do indeed penetrate the same amount of enemies, just like you would expect from the source code:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124bXI0XClU

[NeloDante]

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

How did you test it ? Because my testing shows that they do indeed penetrate the same amount of enemies, just like you would expect from the source code:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=124bXI0XClU

In matches of Vs, since I cannot test the proper Vs values outside of it. The handgun didn't seem to penetrate as many targets as the pistol.

I'm all up for being wrong because information is king, I'd love to have a proper testing ground for Vs instead of doing stuff mid match - since the testing could go wrong due to ping or other players doing something.

[TheSquirrelofHuscurl]

Originally posted by Maximum997:

I like Handgun more.

1) Ability to swap shoot instantly
2) Oneshot of packs no matter what
3) No delay
4) reload talent abuse
5) pinpoint accuracy
6) ability to shield swap shoot under ratling fire
7) shield rats oneshots
8) headshot oneshot

But mostly it is delay. When packs jump on you from the roof that delay hurts.
And when enemies are strafing that delay feels awful too.

I definitely second this. I mainline pistol in PvE but you wouldn't catch me dead using the pistol in versus. The amount of shots I've missed purely due to rng inaccuracy in PvE is annoying enough - in versus, it's downright infuriating. The ability to instantly delete any elite, including shields, and even deal damage to bulwarks/chaos warriors without requiring headshots, is also a strong factor for handgun, too. Even if I personally don't have problems kiting/dodging chaos warriors and bulwarks, being able to deal with them for the rest of the team can make a big difference.

I used to use pistol exclusively during the open beta, because many fresh players had no idea the pistol had high boss damage and so you could easily get away with deleting the entire boss solo. That isn't really the case anymore and most release players will see you not blocking out and focus you down.

In honesty, it's a solid arguement that you don't really need to snipe ratling gunners that are pestering your team from far away. Sometimes it's better to leave a bad gas rat player or bad ratling player alive, but you can't always count on the enemy team being bad at the game and no matter how awful an enemy player is, your own team could easily be worse and die to the ratling gunner that is miles away anyway. Having the option to kill it, if you really need to, is always welcome, and the only major disadvantage of having the handgun at close range is only having one shot.

If I'm worried about close range enemies throughout a mission though (great example being round 2 of righteous stand), I'd rather bring along the grudge-raker instead. You don't need to be perfectly accurate, it fires quickly, and if you don't kill in the first shot, you always will in the second at close range. The reload is quick and the high ammo consumption is negated by your infinite ammo. The right click push also generates a lot of temporary health with the stagger thp talent and it can be used to clear hordes in tight spaces quickly.

A lot of people swear by trollhammer but it runs into the newb trap that a lot of heavy stagger weapons do - it's often better to just kill the enemy quickly. It was nerfed extremely heavily in Versus and doesn't do very much damage unless you nail a target directly (which is hard to do due to the travel time and arc). It can definitely save you in a pinch but it's best at deleting hordes and elites over anything else. It's more of a support tool for killing bosses, stunning it so your other boss kill careers can deal the major damage. It's certainly a solid option in close-quarters areas, but falls off more rapidly than anything else. I personally use handgun for boss kill in Versus - get the level 30 bomb dupe talent, get a strength potion. Drink the potion, pop your ult for ranged damage increase, throw your two bombs, and start unloading handgun rounds (preferably headshots). It won't solo a boss as the last man standing but few things in the game can, anyway.

An important caveat with the handgun (and most ranged weapons in general) is the inability to one shot body shot all specials with it. You are going to need someone else to do some damage or shoot ratlings and fire rats in order to kill them in one shot. Pistol is better for this since getting the second shot off is much faster, assuming you're close enough for no damage falloff.

Bardin's crossbow is probably his weakest weapon. It's practically the same as Saltzpyre's crossbow, except that Bardin has much better ranged weapons to choose from as well as infinite ammo if you are Ranger Veteran. If you want to use it, you pretty much need headshots to do solid damage. The only advantages it has is a fast fire rate and something like 20% extra crit chance when you aim (I haven't verified the truth of this), and both of those are somewhat negated when you realize the pistol and grudge-raker fires faster and the handgun does the almost same damage as a crit crossbow shot without needing to actually get lucky.

Originally posted by Maximum997:

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

Pistol has the same base damage as the handgun but much more damage dropoff with distance.

Does it? Cos i remember it cant oneshot Globe and Pack
And that shot delay is a difference between ability to get a shot without aim penalty.
Damage numbers and damage on dummies doesnt actually show ♥♥♥♥ in this mode.

Walk up to Lohner's emporium shop in the versus lobby. If you hug the desk, you should be able to pick up the dummy behind the counter and bring it to wherever you want in order to test your weapons. It's armored, so you can't test every attack but it's great for getting an idea about damage numbers for weapons that can pierce armor, which most ranged weapons can.

[Corvo]

Originally posted by TheSquirrelofHuscurl:

Originally posted by Maximum997:

I like Handgun more.

1) Ability to swap shoot instantly
2) Oneshot of packs no matter what
3) No delay
4) reload talent abuse
5) pinpoint accuracy
6) ability to shield swap shoot under ratling fire
7) shield rats oneshots
8) headshot oneshot

But mostly it is delay. When packs jump on you from the roof that delay hurts.
And when enemies are strafing that delay feels awful too.

I definitely second this. I mainline pistol in PvE but you wouldn't catch me dead using the pistol in versus. The amount of shots I've missed purely due to rng inaccuracy in PvE is annoying enough - in versus, it's downright infuriating. The ability to instantly delete any elite, including shields, and even deal damage to bulwarks/chaos warriors without requiring headshots, is also a strong factor for handgun, too. Even if I personally don't have problems kiting/dodging chaos warriors and bulwarks, being able to deal with them for the rest of the team can make a big difference.

I used to use pistol exclusively during the open beta, because many fresh players had no idea the pistol had high boss damage and so you could easily get away with deleting the entire boss solo. That isn't really the case anymore and most release players will see you not blocking out and focus you down.

In honesty, it's a solid arguement that you don't really need to snipe ratling gunners that are pestering your team from far away. Sometimes it's better to leave a bad gas rat player or bad ratling player alive, but you can't always count on the enemy team being bad at the game and no matter how awful an enemy player is, your own team could easily be worse and die to the ratling gunner that is miles away anyway. Having the option to kill it, if you really need to, is always welcome, and the only major disadvantage of having the handgun at close range is only having one shot.

If I'm worried about close range enemies throughout a mission though (great example being round 2 of righteous stand), I'd rather bring along the grudge-raker instead. You don't need to be perfectly accurate, it fires quickly, and if you don't kill in the first shot, you always will in the second at close range. The reload is quick and the high ammo consumption is negated by your infinite ammo. The right click push also generates a lot of temporary health with the stagger thp talent and it can be used to clear hordes in tight spaces quickly.

A lot of people swear by trollhammer but it runs into the newb trap that a lot of heavy stagger weapons do - it's often better to just kill the enemy quickly. It was nerfed extremely heavily in Versus and doesn't do very much damage unless you nail a target directly (which is hard to do due to the travel time and arc). It can definitely save you in a pinch but it's best at deleting hordes and elites over anything else. It's more of a support tool for killing bosses, stunning it so your other boss kill careers can deal the major damage. It's certainly a solid option in close-quarters areas, but falls off more rapidly than anything else. I personally use handgun for boss kill in Versus - get the level 30 bomb dupe talent, get a strength potion. Drink the potion, pop your ult for ranged damage increase, throw your two bombs, and start unloading handgun rounds (preferably headshots). It won't solo a boss as the last man standing but few things in the game can, anyway.

An important caveat with the handgun (and most ranged weapons in general) is the inability to one shot body shot all specials with it. You are going to need someone else to do some damage or shoot ratlings and fire rats in order to kill them in one shot. Pistol is better for this since getting the second shot off is much faster, assuming you're close enough for no damage falloff.

Bardin's crossbow is probably his weakest weapon. It's practically the same as Saltzpyre's crossbow, except that Bardin has much better ranged weapons to choose from as well as infinite ammo if you are Ranger Veteran. If you want to use it, you pretty much need headshots to do solid damage. The only advantages it has is a fast fire rate and something like 20% extra crit chance when you aim (I haven't verified the truth of this), and both of those are somewhat negated when you realize the pistol and grudge-raker fires faster and the handgun does the almost same damage as a crit crossbow shot without needing to actually get lucky.

Originally posted by Maximum997:

Does it? Cos i remember it cant oneshot Globe and Pack
And that shot delay is a difference between ability to get a shot without aim penalty.
Damage numbers and damage on dummies doesnt actually show ♥♥♥♥ in this mode.

Walk up to Lohner's emporium shop in the versus lobby. If you hug the desk, you should be able to pick up the dummy behind the counter and bring it to wherever you want in order to test your weapons. It's armored, so you can't test every attack but it's great for getting an idea about damage numbers for weapons that can pierce armor, which most ranged weapons can.

who will read all this ?

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by TheSquirrelofHuscurl:

An important caveat with the handgun (and most ranged weapons in general) is the inability to one shot body shot all specials with it. You are going to need someone else to do some damage or shoot ratlings and fire rats in order to kill them in one shot. Pistol is better for this since getting the second shot off is much faster, assuming you're close enough for no damage falloff.

i am pretty sure that with 2 delays 2 shots from handgun and pistol will be at the +- same speed.