Newbies shouldn't be allowed in Versus

[Winterwolf]

Without matchmaking it turns into a curbstomp and is unfun for players that actually have some time in this game.

Make it a requirement that newbies MUST have a level 35 to join Versus.

[Millo]

*(Edit, just clarifying what point i stand for)

Yeah but you know :
1) Let them enjoy the game they paid for
2) It's not a competitive game, stop being sweaty
3) Go touch some grass, you 30 years old who need a job
4) Just kick them
5) You can still make them learn via the team chat
* 6) Yada yada...

It probably will be the arguments of some peoples.
* Allready seen multiples of these. But it gives the impression that you have to deal with the fact that your fun is not as important as the fun that a noob have being stomped before being allways kicked of every games because nobody want to play with noobs.

To those arguments, i answer :
1) I payd for the game too, so my enjoyment is as relevant as anyone else.
* Plus, i dont think they have fun being stomped every time.

2) It's not about being competitive or sweaty, it's about not letting newbies being stomped by veteran and not letting veteran have bad game because of newbies playing badly.

3) Yeah because anyone who just want to have a little bit of balance and do not just play with theyr brain turned off is nessecarly a nolife.

4) No, if we do that it will dig deeper the division and elithisme between noob and veteran where noobs cant play at all because of veteran always kicking them.

5) I still dont know how peoples still say that. How do you want me to make them learn all of the basic and more while in the middle of the game ? Plus, it is not my job. I'm not against advice, but we are in the middle of a game, there's no time for complex explanation while standing still in the middle of the rats.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by Millo:

Yeah but you know :
- Let them enjoy the game they paid for
- It's not a competitive game, stop being sweaty
- Go touch some grass, you 30 years old who need a job
- Just kick them
- You can still make them learn via the team chat

It probably will be the arguments of some.

Even if :
- I payd for the game too, so my enjoyment is as relevant as anyone else
- It's not about being competitive or sweaty, it's about not letting newbies being stomped by veteran and not letting veteran have bad game because of newbies playing badly.
- Yeah because anyone who just want to have a little bit of balance and do not just play with theyr brain turned off is nessecarly a nolife.
- No, if we do that it will dig deeper the division and elithisme between noob and veteran where noobs cant play at all because of veteran always kicking them
- I still dont know how peoples still say that. How do you want me to make them learn all of the basic and more while in the middle of the game ? Plus, it is not my job. I'm not against advice, but we are in the middle of a game, there's no time for complex explanation while standing still in the middle of the rats.

1) I dont think it is fun for them. They are stomped as heroes in 30 seconds.
Vets mostly just leave games with them. And they leave games a lot too.
When i tried to play with my friends 4 times out of 5 whole enemy team just left straight away or after first round. In 5th game only 2 players left.
2) i dont think they can learn anything while dying in first 30 seconds. And very offten vets just allow them to die as fast as possible to not slow down progression.

[unterzod]

Originally posted by Millo:

Yeah but you know :
- Let them enjoy the game they paid for
- It's not a competitive game, stop being sweaty
- Go touch some grass, you 30 years old who need a job
- Just kick them
- You can still make them learn via the team chat

It probably will be the arguments of some.

Even if :
- I payd for the game too, so my enjoyment is as relevant as anyone else.
- It's not about being competitive or sweaty, it's about not letting newbies being stomped by veteran and not letting veteran have bad game because of newbies playing badly.
- Yeah because anyone who just want to have a little bit of balance and do not just play with theyr brain turned off is nessecarly a nolife.
- No, if we do that it will dig deeper the division and elithisme between noob and veteran where noobs cant play at all because of veteran always kicking them
- I still dont know how peoples still say that. How do you want me to make them learn all of the basic and more while in the middle of the game ? Plus, it is not my job. I'm not against advice, but we are in the middle of a game, there's no time for complex explanation while standing still in the middle of the rats.

— I don't understand why the first counterargument doesn't work. He is good and removes the objection.
— This is literally a competitive mode. You cannot reasonably dispute the fact that its mechanics are competitive.
— Ad hominem.
— Does not work in a situation where there is more than one newbie.
— They can get acquainted with the controls and basic mechanics in PvE. Guides can help them understand the terms. They can look for a mentor in the Discord community. There are more accessible and convenient ways and the choice in favor of the fact that you "maybe" be taught the way to do things is not the most rational. It is irrational because they hit the wall and leave the game and I suspect this happens over and over again in the hope of a different outcome.

[Pink Eye]

Originally posted by Millo:

Yeah but you know :
- Let them enjoy the game they paid for

No. Just stop. PvP babies are not entitled to ruining my mental state just because they bought the game. This isn't PvE, this is PvP, some of us want to actually win.

[Millo]

Originally posted by Maximum997:

Originally posted by Millo:

Yeah but you know :
- Let them enjoy the game they paid for
- It's not a competitive game, stop being sweaty
- Go touch some grass, you 30 years old who need a job
- Just kick them
- You can still make them learn via the team chat

It probably will be the arguments of some.

Even if :
- I payd for the game too, so my enjoyment is as relevant as anyone else
- It's not about being competitive or sweaty, it's about not letting newbies being stomped by veteran and not letting veteran have bad game because of newbies playing badly.
- Yeah because anyone who just want to have a little bit of balance and do not just play with theyr brain turned off is nessecarly a nolife.
- No, if we do that it will dig deeper the division and elithisme between noob and veteran where noobs cant play at all because of veteran always kicking them
- I still dont know how peoples still say that. How do you want me to make them learn all of the basic and more while in the middle of the game ? Plus, it is not my job. I'm not against advice, but we are in the middle of a game, there's no time for complex explanation while standing still in the middle of the rats.

1) I dont think it is fun for them. They are stomped as heroes in 30 seconds.
Vets mostly just leave games with them. And they leave games a lot too.
When i tried to play with my friends 4 times out of 5 whole enemy team just left straight away or after first round. In 5th game only 2 players left.
2) i dont think they can learn anything while dying in first 30 seconds. And very offten vets just allow them to die as fast as possible to not slow down progression.

Originally posted by unterzod:

Originally posted by Millo:

Yeah but you know :
- Let them enjoy the game they paid for
- It's not a competitive game, stop being sweaty
- Go touch some grass, you 30 years old who need a job
- Just kick them
- You can still make them learn via the team chat

It probably will be the arguments of some.

Even if :
- I payd for the game too, so my enjoyment is as relevant as anyone else.
- It's not about being competitive or sweaty, it's about not letting newbies being stomped by veteran and not letting veteran have bad game because of newbies playing badly.
- Yeah because anyone who just want to have a little bit of balance and do not just play with theyr brain turned off is nessecarly a nolife.
- No, if we do that it will dig deeper the division and elithisme between noob and veteran where noobs cant play at all because of veteran always kicking them
- I still dont know how peoples still say that. How do you want me to make them learn all of the basic and more while in the middle of the game ? Plus, it is not my job. I'm not against advice, but we are in the middle of a game, there's no time for complex explanation while standing still in the middle of the rats.

— I don't understand why the first counterargument doesn't work. He is good and removes the objection.
— This is literally a competitive mode. You cannot reasonably dispute the fact that its mechanics are competitive.
— Ad hominem.
— Does not work in a situation where there is more than one newbie.
— They can get acquainted with the controls and basic mechanics in PvE. Guides can help them understand the terms. They can look for a mentor in the Discord community. There are more accessible and convenient ways and the choice in favor of the fact that you "maybe" be taught the way to do things is not the most rational. It is irrational because they hit the wall and leave the game and I suspect this happens over and over again in the hope of a different outcome.

Originally posted by Pink Eye:

Originally posted by Millo:

Yeah but you know :
- Let them enjoy the game they paid for

No. Just stop. PvP babies are not entitled to ruining my mental state just because they bought the game. This isn't PvE, this is PvP, some of us want to actually win.

All of what you'r saying peoples, i stand for.

[Metro Gnome Holding Metronome]

Originally posted by Millo:

*(Edit, just clarifying what point i stand for)

Yeah but you know :
1) Let them enjoy the game they paid for
2) It's not a competitive game, stop being sweaty
3) Go touch some grass, you 30 years old who need a job
4) Just kick them
5) You can still make them learn via the team chat
* 6) Yada yada...

It probably will be the arguments of some peoples.
* Allready seen multiples of these. But it gives the impression that you have to deal with the fact that your fun is not as important as the fun that a noob have being stomped before being allways kicked of every games because nobody want to play with noobs.

To those arguments, i answer :
1) I payd for the game too, so my enjoyment is as relevant as anyone else.
* Plus, i dont think they have fun being stomped every time.

2) It's not about being competitive or sweaty, it's about not letting newbies being stomped by veteran and not letting veteran have bad game because of newbies playing badly.

3) Yeah because anyone who just want to have a little bit of balance and do not just play with theyr brain turned off is nessecarly a nolife.

4) No, if we do that it will dig deeper the division and elithisme between noob and veteran where noobs cant play at all because of veteran always kicking them.

5) I still dont know how peoples still say that. How do you want me to make them learn all of the basic and more while in the middle of the game ? Plus, it is not my job. I'm not against advice, but we are in the middle of a game, there's no time for complex explanation while standing still in the middle of the rats.

Tactical nuke post, that was fun.

[unterzod]

Originally posted by Millo:

All of what you'r saying peoples, i stand for.

Understood, accepted.

But/

How to determine the entry threshold for the Versus mode? For example, level 35 seems like quite an arbitrary threshold; I don’t understand what it is based on.

The mechanics of PvP differ from what PvE mechanics teach, so this won’t bring much benefit and may even be harmful. PvE teaches a slow-paced game and positioning, while Versus, on the contrary, encourages selecting a rush tactic.

It's like if all job postings required prior work experience. The only way to learn how to play Versus is to gain experience in Versus.

This approach simply discriminates against newcomers and chooses a certain path of elitism. This will not only lead to a division of the player base but may also create divides in the community, which will negatively affect the influx of fresh players into the game in the long run.

While the inconveniences for veterans may be a tragedy, the absence of player rotation is a real disaster. Therefore, it would be wiser to endure and perhaps even help newcomers adapt. In the long run we will get a lot of players and a good vibe in the community.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by unterzod:

The mechanics of PvP differ from what PvE mechanics teach, so this won’t bring much benefit and may even be harmful. PvE teaches a slow-paced game and positioning, while Versus, on the contrary, encourages selecting a rush tactic.

The only way to learn how to play Versus is to gain experience in Versus.

Then why PVE vets just destroyed newbies with 0 chance despite same 0 expirience in versus?
PVE expirience means everything cos most versus only 30-40 ranks i saw were just horrible as heroes.

[unterzod]

Originally posted by Maximum997:

Originally posted by unterzod:

The mechanics of PvP differ from what PvE mechanics teach, so this won’t bring much benefit and may even be harmful. PvE teaches a slow-paced game and positioning, while Versus, on the contrary, encourages selecting a rush tactic.

The only way to learn how to play Versus is to gain experience in Versus.

Then why PVE vets just destroy newbies with 0 chance despite same 0 expirience in versus?

Perhaps there is a less arbitrary threshold than level 35. For example, I have already seen level 35 teams destroyed at the start. However, how achievable is this threshold, 1000 hours? 2000? Maybe 3000?

My point is that restricting newbies is not a solution, in the sense of forbidding them to play versus. There may be other solutions.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by unterzod:

Originally posted by Maximum997:

Then why PVE vets just destroy newbies with 0 chance despite same 0 expirience in versus?

Perhaps there is a less arbitrary threshold than level 35. For example, I have already seen level 35 teams destroyed at the start. However, how achievable is this threshold, 1000 hours? 2000? Maybe 3000?

As i said many times
Average gameplay of newbie is 30 seconds on heroes and 20 minutes on Skanens. And thats how they get lvl 35.
Not sure about threshold, but PVE expirience means a lot
Vets are stomping cos that expirience.

May be FS should throw newbies 5-10 times against bots at least. Pass campaign on recruit.

They should add versus against bots, place where newbies can practice heroes and learn maps
And place where you can test things.
It is not fun to test thing in actual match with living players.

[unterzod]

Originally posted by Maximum997:

Originally posted by unterzod:

Perhaps there is a less arbitrary threshold than level 35. For example, I have already seen level 35 teams destroyed at the start. However, how achievable is this threshold, 1000 hours? 2000? Maybe 3000?

As i said many times
Average gameplay of newbie is 30 seconds on heroes and 20 minutes on Skanens.
Not sure about threshold, but PVE expirience means a lot
Vets are stomping cos that expirience.

May be FS should throw newbies 5-10 times against bots at least. Pass campaign on recruit.

They should add versus against bots, place where newbies can practice heroes and learn maps

I don't think that retraining the AI ​​is a simple task, as is creating a good ranking system. However, it seems to me that it is not so difficult to make the rank lower than the initial one and send newbies there to play among themselves.

At some point, there may be few of them and the system will stop working, but then it will not be a big problem to push them into a regular lobby. Since there will be few of them, perhaps this will not create such problems as now, when they are the overwhelming majority. Although this task is also not trivial, I guess.

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by unterzod:

Originally posted by Maximum997:

As i said many times
Average gameplay of newbie is 30 seconds on heroes and 20 minutes on Skanens.
Not sure about threshold, but PVE expirience means a lot
Vets are stomping cos that expirience.

May be FS should throw newbies 5-10 times against bots at least. Pass campaign on recruit.

They should add versus against bots, place where newbies can practice heroes and learn maps

I don't think that retraining the AI ​​is a simple task, as is creating a good ranking system. However, it seems to me that it is not so difficult to make the rank lower than the initial one and send newbies there to play among themselves.

At some point, there may be few of them and the system will stop working, but then it will not be a big problem to push them into a regular lobby. Since there will be few of them, perhaps this will not create such problems as now, when they are the overwhelming majority.

AI is already there man. Just regular Skaven AI to leanr breakpoints, target priority, base mechanics, maps

[unterzod]

Originally posted by Maximum997:

Originally posted by unterzod:

I don't think that retraining the AI ​​is a simple task, as is creating a good ranking system. However, it seems to me that it is not so difficult to make the rank lower than the initial one and send newbies there to play among themselves.

At some point, there may be few of them and the system will stop working, but then it will not be a big problem to push them into a regular lobby. Since there will be few of them, perhaps this will not create such problems as now, when they are the overwhelming majority.

AI is already there man. Just regular Skaven AI to leanr breakpoints, target priority, base mechanics, maps

A. I thought the AI ​​of the hero bots

[Maximum997]

Originally posted by unterzod:

Originally posted by Maximum997:

AI is already there man. Just regular Skaven AI to leanr breakpoints, target priority, base mechanics, maps

A. I thought the AI ​​of the hero bots

Yea. True. My be simple waypoints.
But i see a lot of teams who are scary as Skavens but hopeless as Heroes.

[Millo]

Originally posted by Maximum997:

Originally posted by unterzod:

The mechanics of PvP differ from what PvE mechanics teach, so this won’t bring much benefit and may even be harmful. PvE teaches a slow-paced game and positioning, while Versus, on the contrary, encourages selecting a rush tactic.

The only way to learn how to play Versus is to gain experience in Versus.

Then why PVE vets just destroyed newbies with 0 chance despite same 0 expirience in versus?
PVE expirience means everything cos most versus only 30-40 ranks i saw were just horrible as heroes.

I rejoin Maximum997 on this point.
It's because of my experience on campaign that i can look a Stormvermin patrol in the eyes and say "you dont scare me, in 10 sec you'r all dead" whatever the charechter i play.
To know how to deal not only with the player skaven, but also with the simple little rat is very important.
I learn to not stay on a elevated platform alone, how to fight while going forward, how to deal with massive quantities of ennemies, how to deal with shielded ennemies, i survived enormous quantities of ennemies alone because all of my team was dead.
I had the time to adapt to my weapons, to know them and how to use them.

They dont have any of that, so they play badly and endup kicked or tired of never winning.

Originally posted by unterzod:

While the inconveniences for veterans may be a tragedy, the absence of player rotation is a real disaster. Therefore, it would be wiser to endure and perhaps even help newcomers adapt. In the long run we will get a lot of players and a good vibe in the community.

But i fear that they will not be aptient enough to wait until getting good. If the path to the destination is atrocious, they probably wont take it.