Pyromancer Changes - no thp on crit?

[Sulphuric_Glue]

For the most part I've found the pyro changes to be fun, but there was one change I was really hoping for that for some baffling reason isn't here.

Why does Pyro not have THP on crit yet? Crits are this career's whole gimmick. Why is the gimmick not related to THP? It seemed like a total no-brainer to make this career more engaging and powerful, it always seemed to come up when people asked "what would make pyro better".

This is probably just a cry into the void but on the off-chance Fatshark does check these forums, I want to see how much support there is for this idea to show them.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Be cause thp on crit ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sucks and is in every way worse than thp on cleave unless you're doing a 1v1 with a boss.

[Sulphuric_Glue]

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

Be cause thp on crit ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sucks and is in every way worse than thp on cleave unless you're doing a 1v1 with a boss.

It sucks if your crit chance is low and your weapon's attack angles don't get headshots reliably. Pyro can achieve some of the highest crit chance levels in the game - that's why it used to be the most overpowered career by far on Chaos Wastes if you got the lightning on crit boon.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by Sulphuric_Glue:

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

Be cause thp on crit ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ sucks and is in every way worse than thp on cleave unless you're doing a 1v1 with a boss.

It sucks if your crit chance is low and your weapon's attack angles don't get headshots reliably. Pyro can achieve some of the highest crit chance levels in the game - that's why it used to be the most overpowered career by far on Chaos Wastes if you got the lightning on crit boon.

Thp on crit only procs once per attack, giving you 4 hp at most. Pyro has up to 45% crit chance. Lets be generous and 55% crit chance, lets say you get 3.1hp on average, because you do hit heads and have the average crit rate at 80%+ hp.

Thp on cleave gives you 1 hp for hitting 1 enemy: seems worse.
2.2 hp for hitting 2 enemies, which is already better than non crit headshot.
3.6 for hitting 3 which is better than average from crit hp,
4.8 on hitting 4, and 6 hp per attack when hitting 5.

Realistically you get much more hp so much more reliably by using thp on cleave than on crit.

[Arc]

THP on crit heals at most 4 hp 'per attack'. That's if you get a crit AND a head shot. THP on crit at its absolute best is a less reliable and worse version of on cleave. Which itself is worse than 'on stagger'. Maybe that lightning counts as a separate attack, don't know or care, chaos wastes aren't designed to be blanaced and are wholly irrelevant to any balance discussion, its the mode that makes you broken on purpose.

[Neutral Effect]

I like the idea, but I fear it might be a bit overtuned.

It's entirely possible to get 55% Critical Chance on Pyromancer's melee:

• innate - 5%
  
• weapon modifier - 5%
  
• trinket - 5%
  
• 'Critical Mass' passive - up to 30%
  
• 'Spirit-Casting' (lv.10 talent) - 10%

Now, the last 10% are kinda conditional (> 80% HP), but even with 45% you will have easy time filling up your HP bar, and THP also counts for this passive so you'd be running 45-50% Critical Chance most of the time, even without fully stacked 'Critical Mass'.
Now when you consider that with 'One with Flame' (lv.20 talent) and Swift Slaying weapon trait active (it's gonna be nigh permanent with such high Crit Chance) you'll also have 30% increase to Attack Speed, and that you can take 'Bonded Flame' (lv.30 talent) to give you 35 THP on using 'Burning Head' (your combat ability), you can probably see how this could become absurd THP generation. Especially because it would work well even outside of horde.

So I'd like it to be considered, but it should be tested out in private/open beta branch. Maybe it could replace the third lv.5 talent even.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by Arc:

THP on crit heals at most 4 hp 'per attack'. That's if you get a crit AND a head shot. THP on crit at its absolute best is a less reliable and worse version of on cleave. Which itself is worse than 'on stagger'. Maybe that lightning counts as a separate attack, don't know or care, chaos wastes aren't designed to be blanaced and are wholly irrelevant to any balance discussion, its the mode that makes you broken on purpose.

On stagger doesn't proc on bosses other tham stormfiend when you hit its back. Thp on cleave is great for fast attcking weapon, thp on stagger makes you unkillable with shields.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by Neutral Effect:

I like the idea, but I fear it might be a bit overtuned.

It's entirely possible to get 55% Critical Chance on Pyromancer's melee:

• innate - 5%
  
• weapon modifier - 5%
  
• trinket - 5%
  
• 'Critical Mass' passive - up to 30%
  
• 'Spirit-Casting' (lv.10 talent) - 10%

Now, the last 10% are kinda conditional (> 80% HP), but even with 45% you will have easy time filling up your HP bar, and THP also counts for this passive so you'd be running 45-50% Critical Chance most of the time, even without fully stacked 'Critical Mass'.
Now when you consider that with 'One with Flame' (lv.20 talent) and Swift Slaying weapon trait active (it's gonna be nigh permanent with such high Crit Chance) you'll also have 30% increase to Attack Speed, and that you can take 'Bonded Flame' (lv.30 talent) to give you 35 THP on using 'Burning Head' (your combat ability), you can probably see how this could become absurd THP generation. Especially because it would work well even outside of horde.

So I'd like it to be considered, but it should be tested out in private/open beta branch. Maybe it could replace the third lv.5 talent even.

It can't proc more than once per attack, so only time it is superior to thp on cleave is when fighting less than 3 enemies. When fighting more than 3, thp on cleave very, very, very easily outperforms it, giving you upwards of 6 hp per hit (unless you're using the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crowbil i guess).

[Arc]

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

Originally posted by Arc:

THP on crit heals at most 4 hp 'per attack'. That's if you get a crit AND a head shot. THP on crit at its absolute best is a less reliable and worse version of on cleave. Which itself is worse than 'on stagger'. Maybe that lightning counts as a separate attack, don't know or care, chaos wastes aren't designed to be blanaced and are wholly irrelevant to any balance discussion, its the mode that makes you broken on purpose.

On stagger doesn't proc on bosses other tham stormfiend when you hit its back. Thp on cleave is great for fast attcking weapon, thp on stagger makes you unkillable with shields.

Shields, knife, fire sword, kruber gore spear, etc etc. THP on stagger makes you unkillable for 90% of the map with 1 or more weapons for nearly every character. Need to see how good it is now Fatshark nerfed the classes which instantly killed bosses on spawn so we actually have to fight bosses instead of them being an instant lootbox.

Originally posted by Neutral Effect:

I like the idea, but I fear it might be a bit overtuned.

Not even slightly.
All of that adds to less hp than on stagger and on cleave still and the 30% attack speed applies to both of them too.
The only upside is being able to crit bosses for 2 hp most of the time since you probably aren't always hitting heads since boss won't always be aggrod on you and most bosses move.

[Neutral Effect]

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

It can't proc more than once per attack, so only time it is superior to thp on cleave is when fighting less than 3 enemies. When fighting more than 3, thp on cleave very, very, very easily outperforms it, giving you upwards of 6 hp per hit (unless you're using the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crowbil i guess).

Okay so THP on cleave is likely better in case of hordes most of the time, but worse when fighting fewer enemies (such as elites or a monster/boss). But those are theoreticals while I would like it to be tested in practise since I can imagine it going both ways.

[Sulphuric_Glue]

In the case of Pyro I was more thinking about replacing thp on kill with thp on crit rather than thp on cleave (which certainly should stay). I haven't done the calculations, but thp on crit seems like it would be far more useful than thp on kill for pyro.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by Neutral Effect:

Originally posted by Ing. Ithiridiel:

It can't proc more than once per attack, so only time it is superior to thp on cleave is when fighting less than 3 enemies. When fighting more than 3, thp on cleave very, very, very easily outperforms it, giving you upwards of 6 hp per hit (unless you're using the ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ crowbil i guess).

Okay so THP on cleave is likely better in case of hordes most of the time, but worse when fighting fewer enemies (such as elites or a monster/boss). But those are theoreticals while I would like it to be tested in practise since I can imagine it going both ways.

Fighting an elite, especially as a pyro won't matter. Whether you get 12 thp or 3 if you're 1v1 -ing an elite there is no danger.

Similar case with bosses.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by Sulphuric_Glue:

In the case of Pyro I was more thinking about replacing thp on kill with thp on crit rather than thp on cleave (which certainly should stay). I haven't done the calculations, but thp on crit seems like it would be far more useful than thp on kill for pyro.

Thp on kill and crit both suck. Crit sucks slightly less.

Also there's no real reason to take thp on crit over cleave, since cleave is so much more reliable. And only time it is less effective (in theory) is when doing 1v1s, which should pose no danger to an experienced player anyways.

[Scipo0419]

Why don't we all agree that THP on Kill is the worst form of THP generation and replace it on every career that uses it?

[Davrick]

Personally, I like the variety. I agree that THP on kills and crits both suck, but rather than getting rid of them (or ignoring them and taking one of the other two, if at all possible), I think it would be better if they fixed the two crap ones.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by Davrick:

Personally, I like the variety. I agree that THP on kills and crits both suck, but rather than getting rid of them (or ignoring them and taking one of the other two, if at all possible), I think it would be better if they fixed the two crap ones.

They would both require at least 50% buff to health given to be worth using tbh.