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I'm too old for this Mar 25, 2023 @ 3:55pm
Shade Advice
So I've been playing this game since it came out...i'm not as dedicated as many others out there, but I play legend and hold my own.

I think i have a decent grasp on many classes, but one that I just struggle with is Shade. If you take anything but daggers, she struggles to deal with armoured elites, patrols, even bosses, which is, in my opinion, her role. However, she then struggles vs hordes. Even with blocking, dodging, push etc, I take one hit and I'm at like 1/3 health. Sort of odd for a melee class to have such a low HP pool, but meh, here we are.

instead of complaining, I'm trying to get better. I followed a few guides for talents and Red item properties etc, and it helps. But I find i still struggle to stay alive in a match, unless im running around blocking/dodging the whole time during hordes and waiting for elites.

any good shade players out there have some suggestions on how you avoid damage/keep yourself out of harms way? Better ways to deal with hordes?
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Originally posted by No emaN:
You're a versatile glass cannon that utilizes trickery to manipulate the flow of combat to gain more damage. As you gradually go up in trying to min/max Shade, at least in the melee department you can recognize that her damage scaling does the best with Dual Daggers, 1H Sword, and Sword & Dagger. Her killing capacity functions better as a frontline duelist, like WHC, than an assassin as Exquisite Huntress scales Infiltrate's damage even further upon headshot.

Dodging is the primary thing that will keep you alive as Shade along with any movement speed or the 20% damage reduction from Blood Drinker combined with Barkskin. Dual Daggers/Sword & Dagger paired with some additional stamina and shove spamming (resetting the parry window) while dodging against a horde is an excellent way to disband aggro and get around easier if you cannot defensibly hold without your ult. Its buggy at times remember invisibility is not invincibility. Your invisibility should be granted a purpose each time you use it and remember you have guaranteed crits and an instant kill upon a heavy attack if you get to the back for up to a Chaos Warrior.

If you're struggling against killing elites with Shade or even with Kerillian's weapons in general which all have great attack speed, headshot dmg, and paired with some single-target focus paired with some attacks with moderate cleave she lacks in stagger. You're not getting enough headshots and possibly not utilizing her anti-armor combos. Against hordes only dual daggers and elven axe start lacking as you're dodging around hordes and kiting to gradually whittle them down with your attack speed (light chain attacks). Her other weapons have decent cleave paired with decent headshot access with the right combos.

The only weapon lacking in armored single target is Dual Swords but they offer excellent defensive utility (as you stated fear of Shade's fragility) as the outer block cost is only 1.0x compared to 2.0x all other weapons have. But the light attacks 3 & 4 easily allow you to farm critical hits. Take temp hp on headshot/crit as Shade you start at 10% crit chance and from gear (weapon & trinket) you can get 10% more. Pair this with Blood Drinker & Barkskin. Take Shimmer Strike to make up for your lack of elite killing power. Exquisite Huntress & Assassin always. If you're running Long Bow or any other ammo weapon Bloodfletcher if you're using Briar Javelin or Moonfire bow take Focused Slaying for more C/D to at least get more consistent elite killing. CWs are the only "problem" use Javelins after the first initial attack with your ult.

I repeat myself, as a Shade, your invis' need to have a purpose and most of that is killing. If you actively use this often to lose aggro and you're not following up with killing don't play Shade. If you don't you become an active headache for your team of that one teammate that spams parry invis' when they feel pressured and doesn't utilize these disengagements from the enemy to turn the tables. You are still an evasion centered frontline instead of a stagger CC yours is a kill focus for your team to clear out enemies turning their backs to you. (If using Elven Axe/Dual Daggers clean up stragglers from horde and focus elites) The only time you break off from your team is to actively utilize your backstabbing to kill foes then back to the headshot grindset by your team. Players get that you can be a big strong independent elf, but you get more done by actively utilizing your team to create openings. For Taal's sake dodge to the side away from your team with elites. Your positional awareness of your team IS your job as Shade.
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Showing 1-15 of 27 comments
Ing. Ithiridiel Mar 25, 2023 @ 4:38pm 
Sword & dagger solve your issue with deciding between defense and offense. Along with the rapier they are probably the best movement based weapon in the game.
#1
Ardariel Mar 25, 2023 @ 5:18pm 
Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:
Sword & dagger solve your issue with deciding between defense and offense. Along with the rapier they are probably the best movement based weapon in the game.
would solve trash/elite conundrum for sure, but not defense/offense. Its block cost is utter garbage. Even with 60% BCR. With daggers you can at least learn how to block properly with right angle, but not so much with SnD.

If OP wants balance between offense and defense, i would suggest running dual sword with jav and use jav melee for ult on monsters.

But SnD is definelty best starting ground to train how to properly play as shade. You need to start dodging and NOT blocking. Not rellying on block i mean.
#2
Emilia Tempest Mar 25, 2023 @ 5:19pm 
A good weapon to do both armor and hordes is the Glaive, with the heavy you dumpster armor (be it slow) and the light attacks carry you through hordes. Though its not mindless spamming.
The ult also still does good damage (do the second hit of the heavy attack).
Wouldnt recommend to use it on cata though.

spear can also be good, the push-attack is great to do a sweep, and the first heavy is also good to stagger a good part of a horde.
it relies a lot on headshots for armor, but the "light>heavy" stab combo can do decent against armor even on a body shot (except chaos warriors, just use your ult on them)
(best attack to use your ult with is the second heavy, aka the stab)

Otherwise you can also incorperate more pushes while you attack (you can also get more stamina for more pushes), for me this helps me more to keep damage away as it allows me to just get enemies off me.
And dont fish heavy for backstabs, do them if you can (like when its safe) but mostly ignore them unless its a boss. If youre not in the mood to do the "parry>dodge>be invis>backstab" stuff then going for backstabs gets you killed way faster than just not going for them at all. Yeah I know that is the whole schtick with shade, but just cuz its there doesnt mean its good to use always.

You can also try and let your team charge forward and stay in the middle, that takes the aggro off of you for the most part. I myself prefer to be at the tip of the team so I know that enemies are gonna be after me, but I know what risk I'm putting myself into.

For dodging, just dodge before you need to be dodging. If you think "oh I need to dodge soon" just dodge already. there aint I-frames anyways, it only disables the tracking on attacks. And do NOT run back to where you dodged from, because you likely just run back into the dodged attacks. (run back after a short delay).
Though this just requires some fiddling around and getting comfortable with, there aint like a specific timing I can say because its dependent on the situation. But I hope this at least helps a bit.
(Edit: you can also just push after you dodge, over compensating yeah but it helps to keep the horde in control)

Sadly shade doesnt have any significant talents to get her more defensive, got bad THP talents (thp on kill, or crit/headshot). And on top of that nothing for defense besides an crit needed 20% defense buff which is random to get (you can also get it with the parry>dodge thing, but I'll be real thats not worth it).
The speed can help, but sometimes just leads to enemies doing running attacks more, which.. you dont want them doing running attacks.

And shade is a so called "glass cannon". High damage but frail as, well, glass.
Last edited by Emilia Tempest; Mar 25, 2023 @ 5:22pm
#3
Ing. Ithiridiel Mar 25, 2023 @ 5:21pm 
Originally posted by Ardariel:
Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:
Sword & dagger solve your issue with deciding between defense and offense. Along with the rapier they are probably the best movement based weapon in the game.
would solve trash/elite conundrum for sure, but not defense/offense. Its block cost is utter garbage. Even with 60% BCR. With daggers you can at least learn how to block properly with right angle, but not so much with SnD.

If OP wants balance between offense and defense, i would suggest running dual sword with jav and use jav melee for ult on monsters.

But SnD is definelty best starting ground to train how to properly play as shade. You need to start dodging and NOT blocking. Not rellying on block i mean.

Fair point, but generally shade is not a stand-in-place-and-tank-hits type of class, so I'm kinda expecting OP is already dodging around. Thats why i also specified that its a great mobility-based weapon and not a stagger-based or block-based one.
Last edited by Ing. Ithiridiel; Mar 25, 2023 @ 5:23pm
#4
Ardariel Mar 25, 2023 @ 5:30pm 
Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:
Originally posted by Ardariel:
would solve trash/elite conundrum for sure, but not defense/offense. Its block cost is utter garbage. Even with 60% BCR. With daggers you can at least learn how to block properly with right angle, but not so much with SnD.

If OP wants balance between offense and defense, i would suggest running dual sword with jav and use jav melee for ult on monsters.

But SnD is definelty best starting ground to train how to properly play as shade. You need to start dodging and NOT blocking. Not rellying on block i mean.

Fair point, but generally shade is not a stand-in-place-and-tank-hits type of class, so I'm kinda expecting OP is already dodging around. Thats why i also specified that its a great mobility-based weapon and not a stagger-based or block-based one.
that is why i suggested dual swords. Balance between offense and defense with jav. They are more mobile, than SnD, have better block and let you deal with trahs and most of elits (except one). and if you`re good with dodging - you can easily go with jav or DD anyway.
#5
Shadowness Mar 25, 2023 @ 8:53pm 
The dual daggers are great against elites and doing boss damage, but they're hard to solo hordes with. Even harder if you need to go up against a beastmen horde. If you plan on defeating hordes with them, you absolutely need space to give ground on and to kite properly.

Weapons with longer reach and cleave will be easier to deal with hordes. Sword and Dagger has both the cleave hits from the dual swords to deal with hordes, and the double overhead stab from dual daggers to deal with elites and bosses. Its really the best of both worlds and seem to be a perfect fit for your situation.

No matter the weapon though, you really shouldn't be struggling to survive against any of the bosses except for maybe the glaive due to its lower mobility and dodge count.
#6
Rozpierdalacz Mar 26, 2023 @ 3:31am 
Serious question.
I have 1,3k hours, why is glaive not recommended for cata? I am playing mostly cata+ and honestly i cannot find better weapon than glaive for any kerillian class.
daggers do more damage with ult, they might be a bit better for clearing trash and thats it. Is there some magic dagger combo that destroys stuff?
#7
Ing. Ithiridiel Mar 26, 2023 @ 5:43am 
Originally posted by Rozpierdalacz:
Serious question.
I have 1,3k hours, why is glaive not recommended for cata? I am playing mostly cata+ and honestly i cannot find better weapon than glaive for any kerillian class.
daggers do more damage with ult, they might be a bit better for clearing trash and thats it. Is there some magic dagger combo that destroys stuff?

It is much harder to get out of sticky situations with it because of abysmal block cost, bad dodge count, bad dodge distance. None of kerillian's classes (maybe bar handmaiden) can hold their ground, and have to rely on dodging and repositioning, or rely on a teammate holding the ground for you. Glaive killing stuff is not the problem.
#8
Ingot1508 Mar 26, 2023 @ 6:31am 
I play dual dagger shade on legend with great success. My build has 4 extra stamina (so 2 extra shields is 4 shields total) and 60% block cost reduction on the daggers. So i can block and or push without running out of stamina. During hordes i dodge every 2 or 3 seconds and mix in a push occasionally during my light attacks so i dont get hit. Whem armor shows up i use the ult and do charge attacks. I really don't know what more to say because that is all there is to it. I don't get hit very often and i have the least damage taking compare to the rest of the group most of the time.
#9
Xaphnir Mar 26, 2023 @ 8:32am 
Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:
Originally posted by Rozpierdalacz:
Serious question.
I have 1,3k hours, why is glaive not recommended for cata? I am playing mostly cata+ and honestly i cannot find better weapon than glaive for any kerillian class.
daggers do more damage with ult, they might be a bit better for clearing trash and thats it. Is there some magic dagger combo that destroys stuff?

It is much harder to get out of sticky situations with it because of abysmal block cost, bad dodge count, bad dodge distance. None of kerillian's classes (maybe bar handmaiden) can hold their ground, and have to rely on dodging and repositioning, or rely on a teammate holding the ground for you. Glaive killing stuff is not the problem.

It also struggles enough cleaving through hordes on legend. I can only imagine what that becomes on cata.
#10
Ing. Ithiridiel Mar 26, 2023 @ 8:55am 
Originally posted by Xaphnir:
Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:

It is much harder to get out of sticky situations with it because of abysmal block cost, bad dodge count, bad dodge distance. None of kerillian's classes (maybe bar handmaiden) can hold their ground, and have to rely on dodging and repositioning, or rely on a teammate holding the ground for you. Glaive killing stuff is not the problem.

It also struggles enough cleaving through hordes on legend. I can only imagine what that becomes on cata.

The cleave was massively buffed from what it was in vt1, but yes. It has only slightly higher cleave than s&d, but at half the attack speed it can also be felt.
#11
will i am Mar 26, 2023 @ 10:36am 
can some one explain the jav thing on shade I don't understand how its better than daggers with ult
#12
Xaphnir Mar 26, 2023 @ 10:41am 
Originally posted by will i am:
can some one explain the jav thing on shade I don't understand how its better than daggers with ult

It's not better damage, but it still does a lot. And then you take a weapon that isn't useless against hordes.
#13
Xaphnir Mar 26, 2023 @ 10:54am 
Originally posted by Slaanesh Cultist:
Different weapons get different damage with Shade's ult. Jav is not better than daggers at ult damage but the heavy stab is third best I think. Dual dagger heavy is #1.

Depends on the target. Against armor, javelin heavy is #1, followed closely by DD/SnD. Against unarmored targets, DD/SnD are #1, followed closely by 1h sword, then javelin quite a bit behind after that, though closer if the targets are berserkers.

This is assuming the damage calculator is correct.
Last edited by Xaphnir; Mar 26, 2023 @ 10:57am
#14
Xaphnir Mar 26, 2023 @ 11:09am 
Originally posted by Slaanesh Cultist:
Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Depends on the target. Against armor, javelin heavy is #1, followed closely by DD/SnD. Against unarmored targets, DD/SnD are #1, followed closely by 1h sword, then javelin quite a bit behind after that, though closer if the targets are berserkers.

This is assuming the damage calculator is correct.

Dual dagger heavy does the most damage with Shade's ult. It also splits the damage into two parts so it's possible to hit a chaos warrior with each dagger and get two kills on one stab.

DD/SnD do the same damage (assuming you're using SnD's heavy 2). And, at least according to the damage calculator, they do slightly less damage than javelin against armored targets.

That said, if you take Chain Killer and Cloak of Pain (and Cloak of Pain works right), DD will outdamage SnD, due to the ability to hit with with 2 stacks of Chain Killer on both hits.
Last edited by Xaphnir; Mar 26, 2023 @ 11:11am
#15
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Date Posted: Mar 25, 2023 @ 3:55pm
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