ideal build for shade dual swords?

[Pixie]

i want to know if crit or attack speed or damage % vs or crit damage is generally better.
i pick crit where i can and have using damage vs chaos, infantry and armoured. but perhaps it would be better to stack crit damage, or maybe not crit at all, and instead just go for attack speed? after all, 5% attack speed will bring about 5% more crits in a given time frame.

i play leg and won't be talked out of using dual swords.

[Xaphnir]

Originally posted by Pixie:

after all, 5% attack speed will bring about 5% more crits in a given time frame.

This is fallacious thinking. Let's say you have 10% base crit chance (I don't remember what all the base crit chances are). So let's say you do 100 attacks, you'll average 10 crits. Add 5% attack speed, and in the same period of time you'll get 105 attacks. Of those extra attacks, 0.5 of them will crit on average. Now instead you get 5% crit chance. Your crit chance is now 15%, and out of those 100 attacks, 5 more will crit on average.

In this scenario, +5% attack speed gives you 5% more crits in a given time frame. +5% crit chance gives you 50% more crits.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

No reason to use crit damage at all. It doesn't scale well.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Originally posted by Pixie:

after all, 5% attack speed will bring about 5% more crits in a given time frame.

This is fallacious thinking. Let's say you have 10% base crit chance (I don't remember what all the base crit chances are). So let's say you do 100 attacks, you'll average 10 crits. Add 5% attack speed, and in the same period of time you'll get 105 attacks. Of those extra attacks, 0.5 of them will crit on average. Now instead you get 5% crit chance. Your crit chance is now 15%, and out of those 100 attacks, 5 more will crit on average.

In this scenario, +5% attack speed gives you 5% more crits in a given time frame. +5% crit chance gives you 50% more crits.

Controversionally I think this matters much more for WHC than it does for shade. She only really benefits from crits when you hit the back of enemies. The easiest way to actually get to hit the enemies back without them turning in your direction is to use stealth. She guarantees crits when coming out of stealth. After that the enemy will turn your direction and you don't get much benefit from it again.

The most important thing is swift slaying uptime. Any crit chance above keeping swift slaying up is a waste and would be better spent in attack speed, so you actually clear faster.

[Xaphnir]

Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:

Controversionally I think this matters much more for WHC than it does for shade. She only really benefits from crits when you hit the back of enemies. The easiest way to actually get to hit the enemies back without them turning in your direction is to use stealth. She guarantees crits when coming out of stealth. After that the enemy will turn your direction and you don't get much benefit from it again.

The most important thing is swift slaying uptime. Any crit chance above keeping swift slaying up is a waste and would be better spent in attack speed, so you actually clear faster.

Shade also has the talent that increases crit damage bonus by 50%

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:

Controversionally I think this matters much more for WHC than it does for shade. She only really benefits from crits when you hit the back of enemies. The easiest way to actually get to hit the enemies back without them turning in your direction is to use stealth. She guarantees crits when coming out of stealth. After that the enemy will turn your direction and you don't get much benefit from it again.

The most important thing is swift slaying uptime. Any crit chance above keeping swift slaying up is a waste and would be better spent in attack speed, so you actually clear faster.

Shade also has the talent that increases crit damage bonus by 50%

Arguably it is preferable to go for the one that increases headshot damage by up to 100%, since it does not rely on random crits, and the increase is superior.

With +20% crit damage on weapon and charm, and +50% crit damage talent I was doing 29 damage non crit headshots, and 42.5 damage crit headshots.

With attack speed on both weapon and charm, and 10x +10% headshot damage I was doing 48 43.75 damage headshots and 62 56.5 damage crit headshots.

Edit: oops, had a +10% power on my trinket.

[veracsthane]

Originally posted by Cybran:

Use crit damage and attack speed with swift slaying.

The dual swords have a hidden mechanic where the 3rd and 4th light attacks have increased crit chance, 25% and 50% respectively if I remember right. Shade herself also has a hidden talent of 5% more crit chance on all weapons. Finally, Shades ult counts as a crit.

good to know i cant decide if i like the sword or dual swords better and i got dual swords atm.

[veracsthane]

Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:

Originally posted by Xaphnir:

This is fallacious thinking. Let's say you have 10% base crit chance (I don't remember what all the base crit chances are). So let's say you do 100 attacks, you'll average 10 crits. Add 5% attack speed, and in the same period of time you'll get 105 attacks. Of those extra attacks, 0.5 of them will crit on average. Now instead you get 5% crit chance. Your crit chance is now 15%, and out of those 100 attacks, 5 more will crit on average.

In this scenario, +5% attack speed gives you 5% more crits in a given time frame. +5% crit chance gives you 50% more crits.

Controversionally I think this matters much more for WHC than it does for shade. She only really benefits from crits when you hit the back of enemies. The easiest way to actually get to hit the enemies back without them turning in your direction is to use stealth. She guarantees crits when coming out of stealth. After that the enemy will turn your direction and you don't get much benefit from it again.

The most important thing is swift slaying uptime. Any crit chance above keeping swift slaying up is a waste and would be better spent in attack speed, so you actually clear faster.

i think they are looking at the dodge to stealth part of it and getting dpm as high as possible. the crits pen armor so you dont really have to worry about missing a power attack.

[RNG_Wizard]

5% attack speed is an overrated stat with almost no impact.

Crit damage is also very weak. Shade can crit often which might initially make crit damage appealing, but her crits already instantly kill.

Crit chance is a great choice, though it's a bit weaker on the Dual Swords than on most weapons thanks to their high innate crit chance on their combos. Still, not a bad option for more consistent crits.

Honestly, I'd probably suggest defensive/utility stats to play into the dual sword's strengths. Personally I'd go with stamina & block cost reduction so that you can more safely secure revives, activate Shade's passive stealth more safely, and use pushes more aggressively to capitalize on stagger damage bonuses & protect allies in the process.

[veracsthane]

Originally posted by RNG_Wizard:

Honestly, I'd probably suggest defensive/utility stats to play into the dual sword's strengths. Personally I'd go with stamina & block cost reduction so that you can more safely secure revives, activate Shade's passive stealth more safely, and use pushes more aggressively to capitalize on stagger damage bonuses & protect allies in the process.

thats what im seeing but when i krellion i prefer to go glass cannon and throw up my hands when we lose because i know i had the most melee and ranged elite and special kills. if im doing autistic dpm and i still lose then none of that would have saved me or the round.

[RNG_Wizard]

Originally posted by veracsthane:

Originally posted by RNG_Wizard:

Honestly, I'd probably suggest defensive/utility stats to play into the dual sword's strengths. Personally I'd go with stamina & block cost reduction so that you can more safely secure revives, activate Shade's passive stealth more safely, and use pushes more aggressively to capitalize on stagger damage bonuses & protect allies in the process.

thats what im seeing but when i krellion i prefer to go glass cannon and throw up my hands when we lose because i know i had the most melee and ranged elite and special kills. if im doing autistic dpm and i still lose then none of that would have saved me or the round.

That's satire, right?

[The Fountaineer 🖋]

Dual sword Shade, aka, the Lawnmower Elf.

[Ing. Ithiridiel]

Originally posted by RNG_Wizard:

5% attack speed is an overrated stat with almost no impact.

Crit damage is also very weak. Shade can crit often which might initially make crit damage appealing, but her crits already instantly kill.

Crit chance is a great choice, though it's a bit weaker on the Dual Swords than on most weapons thanks to their high innate crit chance on their combos. Still, not a bad option for more consistent crits.

Honestly, I'd probably suggest defensive/utility stats to play into the dual sword's strengths. Personally I'd go with stamina & block cost reduction so that you can more safely secure revives, activate Shade's passive stealth more safely, and use pushes more aggressively to capitalize on stagger damage bonuses & protect allies in the process.

Attack speed is probably more impactful than crit damage and likely more useful than crit chance in terms of dps.

I'm not a dual swords user, but I can see your point since it has the full 2 stamina push cost.
I usually run my weapons with BCR + AS or CC depending on a rough calculation of swift slaying uptime and personal gut feeling.

[veracsthane]

Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:

Originally posted by RNG_Wizard:

5% attack speed is an overrated stat with almost no impact.

Crit damage is also very weak. Shade can crit often which might initially make crit damage appealing, but her crits already instantly kill.

Crit chance is a great choice, though it's a bit weaker on the Dual Swords than on most weapons thanks to their high innate crit chance on their combos. Still, not a bad option for more consistent crits.

Honestly, I'd probably suggest defensive/utility stats to play into the dual sword's strengths. Personally I'd go with stamina & block cost reduction so that you can more safely secure revives, activate Shade's passive stealth more safely, and use pushes more aggressively to capitalize on stagger damage bonuses & protect allies in the process.

Attack speed is probably more impactful than crit damage and likely more useful than crit chance in terms of dps.

I'm not a dual swords user, but I can see your point since it has the full 2 stamina push cost.
I usually run my weapons with BCR + AS or CC depending on a rough calculation of swift slaying uptime and personal gut feeling.

i just tried it for a few games i couldnt tell a diffrence. block reduction is better if you ask me. if you want to go attack speed you will want to pair it with the charm attack speed so it goes up to 10% and even then i dont think you will notice it.

[Ardariel]

Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:

Originally posted by RNG_Wizard:

5% attack speed is an overrated stat with almost no impact.

Crit damage is also very weak. Shade can crit often which might initially make crit damage appealing, but her crits already instantly kill.

Crit chance is a great choice, though it's a bit weaker on the Dual Swords than on most weapons thanks to their high innate crit chance on their combos. Still, not a bad option for more consistent crits.

Honestly, I'd probably suggest defensive/utility stats to play into the dual sword's strengths. Personally I'd go with stamina & block cost reduction so that you can more safely secure revives, activate Shade's passive stealth more safely, and use pushes more aggressively to capitalize on stagger damage bonuses & protect allies in the process.

Attack speed is probably more impactful than crit damage and likely more useful than crit chance in terms of dps.

I'm not a dual swords user, but I can see your point since it has the full 2 stamina push cost.
I usually run my weapons with BCR + AS or CC depending on a rough calculation of swift slaying uptime and personal gut feeling.

Stamina +bcr there is not for a push, but to save you from overheads. Dual swords with +4 stam and +60% BCR can survive overhead in your back with 3 stamina left, so you still can operate. It maximises one of advantages of dual swords - low block cost in back sector (2.0 instead of standart 4.0).

[Et lux perpetua]

Originally posted by veracsthane:

Originally posted by Bc. Ithiridiel:

Attack speed is probably more impactful than crit damage and likely more useful than crit chance in terms of dps.

I'm not a dual swords user, but I can see your point since it has the full 2 stamina push cost.
I usually run my weapons with BCR + AS or CC depending on a rough calculation of swift slaying uptime and personal gut feeling.

i just tried it for a few games i couldnt tell a diffrence. block reduction is better if you ask me. if you want to go attack speed you will want to pair it with the charm attack speed so it goes up to 10% and even then i dont think you will notice it.

Try dual daggers, swift slaying attack speed on equipment and daggers and see if your poor finger can keep up left clicking with the blurr on screen. If you've just taken some amphetamines you can drink a speed pot also.