Some people are crazy good at this game. Any tips?

[Munchies]

I recently started playing on Legend and Champion since I got a witchunter to lvl 30 and I can say that there are people who are carrying hard on those dificulties with thomes and grimoars. How do they do it? Any tips on becoming better?

I know I have to defend more and not be hungry for kills and to stay close to other payers, share healing with whoever needs it the most, when a boss is focusing me to only defend and such. But are there any more advanced tips on how to contribute more to the team, are there any characters or builds that are better for higher dificulties? Most times I've been carried by a person who is playing Kerillian, is there a reason for that? Are there any god rolls on weapons or trinkets that I should look for? There is so much subjective information in internet so I decided to ask here, don't kill me ...

[Kotzi]

Well, not the best player here but you actually know the most important thing. Not taking hits > dealing damage. Everything else will come with time. I mean, most of us got their a.s.s.e.s handed to them on recruit in the beginning and every step on the difficulty above seemed so steep until you actually clear stuff regularely and almost automatically fight, dodge and kite.

EDIT: Most my failed runs, even with groups of competent players, fail because people get to greedy. After a couple of sucessfull runs people seem to always take a step further than the teammates to get the kills or rush the event because last level went so smooth etc. pp.

[Chizakura]

Yeah, I think self-preservation is key. As much as green circles get the attention, genuinely good players know the value of pushing/push attacking, dodging, anything to keep a horde at bay, know the map, know the audio cues, know where horde can come from, know if there in an area where monsters can spawn, have a solid, if not, great understanding of how to deal with specials, multiples, even and know their weapons well so they can maximize their effects.

Add being able to look at terrain and see where they can kite enemies, make sure they don't get cornered, etc.

If you're mainly playing on champion, you probably don't need to worry about breakpoints. Legend and above is where it really starts to matter whether it takes one body shot or two body shots (which is basically what a breakpoint is - the +x enemy investment in gear that will reduce the numbers of hits/shots it takes to kill something) to down a special or elite, etc. Breakpoints are usually mainly relevant with your ranged weapons b/c taking 2 shots to kill something rather than 1 shot means you're spending double the ammo as well as it could mean the difference between life and death of yourself or a teammate. Sometimes, breakpoints on shielded weapons matter if it means whether you can interrupt a monk/zerker, CWs or maulers, etc.

Normally, on your main weapon, most people prefer +atk spd or +crit and block cost reduction. On your ranged weapons, it usually works in tandem with other slots to get you to a breakpoint. For example, a popular one is to add 20% armor and 20% skaven on Kerillian's javelin and charm so that you can one shot body shot a lot of skaven types in legend (at cata+, even with 40% investment, this becomes just three things you can 1sbs - this is usually in the context of specials/elites, not trash mobs).

On your charms, it tends to be +health and +bcr, on your trinket +crit and curse resistance (this will be critical to minimize the grim hp hit in legend where most people do their red farming, but usually something like stamina recovery on cata or if you're not collecting books). I also prefer shrapnel on my trinket so that grenades cause 20% more damage for 10 sec to boost damage, but it's preferred by a lot of people so there can be a lot of overlap.

Also, on your necklace, I prefer barkskin to minimize incoming damage, but others prefer natural bond. On your primary weapon, swiftslaying is the de facto king. On shielded weapons, it can be be something like opportunist to get you over a push/interrupt bp. If it's a ranged weapon, it can be a few different things. If it's a sniping tool, conservative shooter, but on others, it can be hunter, scrounger, barrage, etc.

If you're encountering Kerillian players who are carrying or clutching hard, it can be one of a few things. If it's the waystalker, her ult auto aims so is effective at taking out specials, trash or even some elites, if it's shade, her invis can not only delete some heavies, but can get her out of tricky situations, if it's handmaiden, her dash is on a super short cooldown and if she's using Gift of Ladrielle, it makes her invis for 2 sec after her dash ult which, in combination with the fact that one of her innate abilities is to be able to revive people 50% faster than others while giving the target 20 health in the process, it allows her to clutch/carry hard (might be the best within elf or the game, even).

And sott has a lot in her took kit to control targets. Her staff allows her to lift anything, but monsters and lords and in whatever numbers so long as her staff doesn't overheat (technically, it's different than Sienna's overheat mechanic, but whatever), she has team temp hp, debuffs, has a wall that can control and/or debuff targets, etc.

Any of these could be a reason for them clutching/carrying, but if you're good enough, you can do that with just about anyone and there are others who have a tool kit that is almost or just as effective at doing it. Some others that come to mind are FK, wp, IB, RV, and BW, but don't let this list fool you, a competent player can absolutely save the day with any career.

Lastly, I'll edit in Royale w/ Cheese's career guides for you to take a look at. He's pretty much the guy when it comes to career builds for legend and cata (I am lazy so I just use my cata builds in legend).


edit:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2034609078

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1833338040

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1821186836

[radz74]

After you play for awhile you will realise the only real threat are disables so if you deal with them fast and don't get surrounded you can clutch hard.

Bonus points if you learn respoint triggers so you can pull back and get a nice and close respawn when you clutch.

Yeah and don't be bothered about getting kills unless you need the thp. It amuses me players trying to flex on there kills when it's just specials kill and a little elite kills that interests me. Killing trash just means they are doing the crap easy stuff no one else can be bothered to do.

[Frostbeast]

I like to say: "If you are forced to block, you already failed". Ofc, against a monster or an army of Chaos Warriors the rule is wrong but against a horde you should try to work with attacks and pushing only.
Guides, guides, guides. Vermin has many hidden mechanics. You could look into the Youtube channel thepartyknife. He has some useful stuff.
There is at least one rule to rule them all: THERE IS ALWAYS AN ENEMY BEHIND YOU. ALWAYS. So turn around as much as you can. For example when you charge an attack with a slow weapon, you could use the time to take a quick look behind you.
Some stuff will come over time. Like weapon preferences. What you like now or you think is the best weapon will change over time.

[Mysterious Sir Knight]

My largest tip is this, prioritise your defensive measures as follows:
1: Stagger, if your attacks/pushes are enough to hold off the attacks from what you are fighting then you are good.
2: Dodging, if your attacks stagger isn't enough for what you are dealing with, and an attack makes it through, dodge it.
3: Blocking, if you fail to dodge the attack or run out of effective dodges its time to block.

You can use this little priority list for literally any melee weapon. The only differences will be which parts of it you use more often, for example Elf's Dual Daggers have poor cleave and thus stagger as well as poor blocking capabilities, meaning you will have to make use of dodges primarily. And on the other side of the coin are weapons such as the Mace & Shield/Hammer & Shield which has poor Dodging, forcing you to then rely on your stagger and blocking more often.

[Nightslaver]

First and most importent tipp, learn that you never run allone. It gives so many players in Vermintide were are thinking that they are so pro, that they can rush on legend wide away in front of rest of the party dodge and kill hordes and elites alone, but dies self as last if rest is died far behind, if monster + monks + gatling + horde on same time killed the rest of party.

And, ping with button t the elites (assassins, monks, chaos warriors, stranglers, ratling gunners, ect.) if you see them, so that everyone in team has notice from them, so that someone of your group, you or some other, kills it so quick es possible.

Secondly, dodge, Blocking and pushing enemies back is nearly ever better as doing dmg and gets dmg from enemies for done dmg on enemies.

Third, learn which the pros and cons of your used weapon / items and look which attributes / stats on it makes most sense with your played build and class / carrere. It gives many players there makes the mistake and thinking that the stats crit. dmg + crit. chance, or attack speed, on every weapon, is ever the best choice. That's are mostly this players how becomes most damage from enemies and dies most time in missions and as first.

An example, a Handmaiden Kerillian with Spear + Shield with crit chance and damage sounds nice, but spear and shield is an more tanky weapon, and crit chance + damage makes you with that weapon not to a so mutch more effective dmg dealer for your group, if you hasn't this, but it makes you to an much more better tank for your group, if you have greater radius to block and push enemies and reduce your stanima costs by blocking and pushing enemies.

Forth, map knowledge. Learn the maps (mostly exepriance), run them maby some times on champion difficulty or lower and look which positions good to fight hordes and monsters, which positions hordes and monsters spawn and they are come from, where the positions of books and grims and on what way you can loot them quicky, ect.

Fifth learn to use your F Skills useful for your team. Brings nothing if you use Inflitrate of your Shade to kill 2 elites if 2 seconds later spawn a Monster and you F-skill is on a 30 sec. cooldown. Or one of your team goes in a horde down nobody reach him and you as shade can reach him hidden from enemys and bring him back on his legs, but your inflitrate is on cooldown, ect.

Sixth, learn to manage the use of healing, potions and bombs. Its better to have a bomb if a patrol comes if you fight a horde, or some monks spawns with horde and you cant focus them out, as waist your bomb for 1 or 2 elites / some normal enemys, that you can kill easy with no bombs, ect.

At healing its better someone from the team become it which was going down, so he is not directly dead by next enemy hit, or heal that ones, that wear grims. when this are die, the grim is lost for all. As notice by the way, if you have an kerillian as Handmaiden in team, let put she up players, if she can reach them and do it, she put him up faster and heals 20 HP of down going players directly, with one property of her carrere. So this players can go down again and do not die directly by next enemy hit, if no option of healing this is extremely good to know.

And it gives one exception of it all, if you have some player in team how dies extremely often and donate his hp hard, heal him not, if anyone other in team has not his full hp. Its absolute waste of healing to heal this weak players and than it is better you gives the healing that players which plays strong, if needed, as this absolut weakest player of the party.

Sound eventuely a little bit hard, but its better for all have three good players which become best chances to end mission whit success and it profit all of them from it, as waste all the healing to an weak player and all lost it and have no profit from it.

Seventh learn where you fight aganst a monster, if it spawn on tight positions, many player makes the mistake and will fight him there, where is no place. Thats can be ok if you has a grail knight Kruber with blessed blade, or shade kerrilian which can do sneak dmg with inflitrate on his back of it, so that the monster dies extremely quick, but if nothing of this an option its moste time better your tank pull the agro monster to a more open position, which alows better doge attacks of it, for fight it, if an open place near by.

Eighth, play enough, the rest is mostly experience and training thing, that you only get over time, when you are regularly play the game. ;-)

[Solus]

You said it just right. You have to stay always close to the "payers"

[radz74]

Originally posted by Solus:

You said it just right. You have to stay always close to the "payers"

Not that important and a pain in many cases imo.

A half decent ranged char can shoot a disabler off a char from a pretty big range so try not to go much further than line of sight. Staying to close just bogs everyone down.

[veracsthane]

Originally posted by Munchies NerdsBG:

I recently started playing on Legend and Champion since I got a witchunter to lvl 30 and I can say that there are people who are carrying hard on those dificulties with thomes and grimoars. How do they do it? Any tips on becoming better?

I know I have to defend more and not be hungry for kills and to stay close to other payers, share healing with whoever needs it the most, when a boss is focusing me to only defend and such. But are there any more advanced tips on how to contribute more to the team, are there any characters or builds that are better for higher dificulties? Most times I've been carried by a person who is playing Kerillian, is there a reason for that? Are there any god rolls on weapons or trinkets that I should look for? There is so much subjective information in internet so I decided to ask here, don't kill me ...

its gear and proper talent usage. if you dont have the 300 gear then you should chill on champion

[Kotzi]

I would disagree, 300 item power is not needed in legend. Not even level 35 imho. Just know the maps, mechanics and hero abilities. I dont mind playing with players that yet lack the skills, one can learn that, i just dislike people that seem to have just rushed to higher difficulties and seem to not understand even the basic of teamplay or gameplay.

[veracsthane]

Originally posted by Kotzi:

I would disagree, 300 item power is not needed in legend. Not even level 35 imho. Just know the maps, mechanics and hero abilities. I dont mind playing with players that yet lack the skills, one can learn that, i just dislike people that seem to have just rushed to higher difficulties and seem to not understand even the basic of teamplay or gameplay.

gear can make up for lake of team play. i had a 6.5 block hammer that made it able to push for days with a stamina regen trinket. i didnt like no damage but people didnt even take damage. there was a chaos warrior spawn where they barelly kill the chaos warrior and i was able to tank the sheild mob too. to say gear doesnt matter is insanity.

if i had to rank wants needed it would be

teamwork skills
blocking/shoving
gear/talents
knowing the map
edit in ranged - to many new people lean to hard on range as low as champion

you can always figure things out as you go and knowing maps only really matters if you want the tombs and grimores

[HunApo]

Originally posted by Kotzi:

I would disagree, 300 item power is not needed in legend. Not even level 35 imho. Just know the maps, mechanics and hero abilities. I dont mind playing with players that yet lack the skills, one can learn that, i just dislike people that seem to have just rushed to higher difficulties and seem to not understand even the basic of teamplay or gameplay.

^
This

You can easily clear legend with full template gear and template geared melee only bots and still have breakpoints for specials.

[Raeburn]

@OP:

I have never read a 'playing guide' or anything else regarding how I "should" play. I like to make my own judgements and experiences and not make others' mine in many things which are important to me, if I am able to do so.
Therefore, I might be lacking in certain "ideas" or "strategies" others might deem "the best" etc.. (Just neutrally speaking and not wanting to piss off anybody.)
However, if you want advice, I can summarize my personal view on this in a single term:

Situational awareness.

For this game, this translates to:
- Don't play on difficulties you consider really challenging to yourself at times when you're in a bad mood or unconcentrated otherwise, if you want to take it seriously. If you just want to have fun, go ahead. If you really want to become better, just having fun will not cut it.

- Learn to identify the currently highest threat to *you* first, *then* to your friends. If *you* go down, other members of your group have to care and compensate for you and your possible loss, and when *one* falls, others tend to follow very quickly, until the game is lost.
Prioritize the dangers involved, depending on the current situation, and do not consider any "rules" fixed. If I remember correctly, Bruce Lee (and probably lots of other people) said "Be like water". This is what your mind has to become like, if that makes sense. Expect changes, nothing fixed. Better yet, expect nothing and only react to every single situational part, all the while following the mission. This identification and involved prioritization has to occur very fast and very fluently. If the danger you identify is a threat to you *and* to the other members of your group (e.g. a Blightstormer or an assassin), take responsibility for you *and* your group (but for yourself *first*, see above), and try to eliminate the threat involved, but - important! - WARN the others about the threat first by pinging it or using the chat wheel. If you realize you cannot eliminate the threat in the given moment, evade it.
E.g., a horde of "lesser" enemies is also very dangerous on higher difficulties. Consider every single enemy a "worthy" opponent, which is not to be underestimated. I have been killed hundreds, if not thousands of times not by a boss or by a Chaos Warrior, but by a single little rat (confirmed by my statistics, which can be seen with a mod), seemingly out of nowhere.
A horde can lock you down easily, as they run into you, and you cannot move anymore, and often, only the character's special ability can save you then. The key here is to realize when an "orbit" of lesser enemies is forming around you and to avoid becoming surrounded / trapped.

- In addition to consider every single enemy a "worthy" opponent, you also need to consider every member of your group a "worthy" member. This is how you win games. (Of course, winning games and receiving fulfillment solo is also perfectly possible, depending on your (current?) personality.)
What does this mean? It essentially means only one thing: conditional respect. (*Not* unconditional respect!)
Respect others' abilities and those of their game character(s). E.g., if you are a melee fighter, take the front, but try to *leave firing lanes* for the ranged fighters behind you, i.e. try to keep to a certain side while fighting, preferably always, if a ranged ally is behind you. This way, you become predictable to your allies, and this even works without any other form of communication often. Predictable = dependable (to your *allies*).
"Conditional" respect means you don't have to completely tolerate every ♥♥♥♥♥♥ kind of behaviour by someone. Leave the current game if you find your current "allies" to be incompatible with yourself or your playstyle.

- Regroup as fast as possible often. There are times when people will get separated, for this or that reason, so whenever that happens to you, try to get back to your team mates as quickly as possible. Consider it a democracy, where the majority rules. If three people go to the left side and there is no good reason not to go that way, also go to the left side, if they are randoms, and don't try anything funny, if you want to win.
On the other hand, should you be in a group of three, and you see the fourth member of your group fending for him- / herself alone, go to him / her, and stand by his / her side. It *will* occur and does not have to be due to "bad playing" by the fourth guy or gal (considers Blightstormers or other circumstances). Leaving the player outlines "Always On" in the options really helps here.
In my book, with four players, the best group size is four. The second best group size is *two*, if all of your members are "alive". Again, it's *"two"*. Not "three".


All in all, just my two cents.
Should you find that others happen to share the same view as I, and they have found it out by themselves, even better. Then you have more data and can find things which appear more likely and more valuable to you to choose from.

[veracsthane]

Originally posted by HunApo:

Originally posted by Kotzi:

I would disagree, 300 item power is not needed in legend. Not even level 35 imho. Just know the maps, mechanics and hero abilities. I dont mind playing with players that yet lack the skills, one can learn that, i just dislike people that seem to have just rushed to higher difficulties and seem to not understand even the basic of teamplay or gameplay.

^
This

You can easily clear legend with full template gear and template geared melee only bots and still have breakpoints for specials.

what level where you. if you are on a new account you should up load it to youtube because you get damage from level and equipment. being level 35 kinda means you do the same damage as someone with 300 equipment at level 1

[oh no]

Stay alive / Block more

Maintain situational awareness / kill specials.