Scrounger nerf... than again.... what is the point of this trait now?

[Medojedova zhouba]

I have idea for another nerf.... every ranged weapon should have 1 ammo what you can use only once per run. Or another nerf... scrounger should remove ammo per critical hit..... maybe 5 or more ammo.... than.... only melee can kill.... ranged weapons can´t..... or you can give us another melee patch and buff elf one more time. Give 100% push/block angle and 100% BCR.... because you are evidently obssesed by elfs... or you can nerf BH career skill... only every 2 minutes he could have blessed shots.... give him 25 minutes cooldown for his ult and remove his ranged weapons....

Now seriously.... what was wrong with first scrounger nerf? What kind of ape reworked it? Did he play with new scrounger? Or he did it only because he could? And second thing/question.... why is Resourceful Sharpshooter/Combatant reworked again? If you want rework it like this... give us lower cooldown for everyone. Because there are only 2 or 3 characters who needed this nerf... One of this is Pyromancer another is Shade and another is.... see? I don´t know who else.... Only Pyro and Shade needed it. But the rest of careers will suffer from it because they have very low Critical chance HM or Slayer don´t ofc thx to silly low cooldown but the rest? Well.... there is nothing what I want to say, so if anyone from FS can tell me what stupid reason... one of the stupid reasons... is behind this changes I´ll be glad. There are much more simple choices how to change it, so why you changed it so stupidly?

But don´t get me wrong... I´ll adapt, but really? These change must created only braindead ape. What kind of idiots you´re hiring FS?

[Chapter Eleven]

....

[NoSavy¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Still works well enough with the grudge bash. Though not nearly as well and only during hordes.

[Ardariel]

1st - scrounger now, after update #2, is good for ranged careers and bad for melee. For ranged careers you still can utilise it to preserve your ammunition. It works fine for LB, ELB, xbow and repXbow. THis "nerf" strikes careers with low ammo count so they are dedicated more as melee now. Is that a nerf? Compared to live version - yes. Compared to update#1 - no.

2nd - RC was not nerfed. As you asid at first it is rework. Cant say i like it but most of careers does not feel any difference with old and new one. It strikes DIRECTLY pyro and shade. Merc can experience slight longer CD now, but only slight.

Criticism is good. When it is constructive and objective criticism.

[Vacca]

oh god its the ... guy

but really, 5% ammo back on crit and not applying multiple times is fair.

[Bdeslaurs]

Thx for your rant always funny to read them.

[Alistair MacBain]

You might wanna reread what you wrote and understand how scrounger and resourceful changes benefited more careers.
Resourceful on live is only good for low cd ults and bad for all others. And its only good for fast weapons. new resourceful is usable on much more. And Scrounger change #2 was a buff from change #1 not a nerf.

[Medojedova zhouba]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

1st - scrounger now, after update #2, is good for ranged careers and bad for melee. For ranged careers you still can utilise it to preserve your ammunition. It works fine for LB, ELB, xbow and repXbow. THis "nerf" strikes careers with low ammo count so they are dedicated more as melee now. Is that a nerf? Compared to live version - yes. Compared to update#1 - no.

2nd - RC was not nerfed. As you asid at first it is rework. Cant say i like it but most of careers does not feel any difference with old and new one. It strikes DIRECTLY pyro and shade. Merc can experience slight longer CD now, but only slight.

Criticism is good. When it is constructive and objective criticism.

I know its directly for Pyro and Shade, but I still think its really big change for anyone who have much lower chance for critical hit. And especially when that rework is pretty unfair to other carrers in my opinion. There was very simple choice. Even beamstaff would have be ok as it was with one simple change. Nerf crit chance for Pyromancer and Shade.... in case of BH´s unliimited ammo it could be only higher amount of cooldown for Blessed shots. And that could resolve all problems with ranged nerf or something like that. If they want that nerfs... ok, but why they can´t nerf Shade´s ult damage and Slayer´s cooldown for his ult. Or even HM´s ult need nerf.... but every nerf are about ranged when there was more simple choises how to deal with it... for example how I wrote... lower crit chance for Pyro and Shade or simmiliar thing....

Scrounger nerf in first cas was correct and very good. 1 ammo per critical hit was good nerf... not dramatical but still good nerf..... That was fine.... now? Its still pretty useless for weapons with less than 21 ammo.... If they want this change... ok. np..... but why thy can add more ammo for these weapons. 5% is nice, but not for Blunderbas, Hundgun, Grudge-Raker LB for HM or Shade, because WS´s is spitting arrows like mad.... Because not there isn´t simple reason why I should use Scrounger instead of Conservative Shooter.... really don´t need to use scrounger.... Conservative Shooter is much much better than Scrounger now. With this the teams are forced to use ranged Veteran and his 30% ammo talent in my opinion.... and every 5 sec is too much.... even in cas of RC.... For me it should look like this... 5% cooldown per critical hit every 5 second? Ok... but give us lower cooldown in vanilla for every character..... 5% of ammunition per critical hit every 5 seconds? Ok, but give us more ammo for weapons like blunderbass and similliar weapons.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

1st - scrounger now, after update #2, is good for ranged careers and bad for melee. For ranged careers you still can utilise it to preserve your ammunition. It works fine for LB, ELB, xbow and repXbow. THis "nerf" strikes careers with low ammo count so they are dedicated more as melee now. Is that a nerf? Compared to live version - yes. Compared to update#1 - no.

2nd - RC was not nerfed. As you asid at first it is rework. Cant say i like it but most of careers does not feel any difference with old and new one. It strikes DIRECTLY pyro and shade. Merc can experience slight longer CD now, but only slight.

Criticism is good. When it is constructive and objective criticism.

Is it really not a nerf compared to update 1. All but swiftbow and repeater pistol (to be fair I might be missing 1 or 2 ) return 2 or less ammo. Its best case scenario is the same for any low ammo weapons like handgun or shotgun or like half the weapons for non ranged classes.

So in general, you have to hit 2 enemies a shot to make up for that ammo from update 1 to 2. To me that seems like an objective nerf to any weapon class combo that has less than 30 ammo, a neutral to weapons like longbow on ranged classes that can cleave well but have moderate ammo, a buff for weapons like brace pistols that don't cleave well, and its like 500 percent increased ammo for swiftbow WS.

Overall, I think its nerfed for more class weapon combos than not. And if they wanted it to be good on ranged classes, they could have made it scale with max ammo multiplier instead of max ammo so that it wouldn't be 20 times better (by the metric of ammo gained thats actually an underestimate, ofc live scrounger can generate infinite so its better than that) on swiftbow WS than say HM longbow.

Purely in terms of strength its not really nerfed that much. But its basically got a huge "do not use" sign on any low ammo weapon, whereas before it was bad on low cleave, but this described fewer weapons and pretty much everything can at least cleave some slaverats.

I mean they probably use integers for ammo count so this probably wouldn't make sense, but I'd rather just see 1.5 ammo returned. Or better yet a flat 15 percent chance to return 2 (or something like 15 percent*ammo multiplier chance but that starts really heavily favoring ranged classes). Then its the can't headshot but need ammo trait, and doesn't give classes like merc infinite ammo.

[Cacomistle]

Originally posted by Alistair MacBain:

You might wanna reread what you wrote and understand how scrounger and resourceful changes benefited more careers.
Resourceful on live is only good for low cd ults and bad for all others. And its only good for fast weapons. new resourceful is usable on much more. And Scrounger change #2 was a buff from change #1 not a nerf.

Resourceful on live offers a flat cooldown. If every 2 seconds you get a crit, you're getting your ult back twice as fast no matter what its cd is. So its good on ults that are impactful for their cd.

Now resourceful is a lot better on higher cd ults. Its completely useless for someone like HM, cause even if you use it off cd its taking 1 second off every 5 seconds. Absolute best case scenario is 20 percent cdr and you probably won't get anywhere close to that.

As for weapons, yeah I agree. Usable on any weapon now rather than just fast high cleave weapons. I think they just need to change that % to a flat value and it would be a better design.

[HunApo]

Originally posted by Ardariel:

1st - scrounger now, after update #2, is good for ranged careers and bad for melee. For ranged careers you still can utilise it to preserve your ammunition. It works fine for LB, ELB, xbow and repXbow. THis "nerf" strikes careers with low ammo count so they are dedicated more as melee now. Is that a nerf? Compared to live version - yes. Compared to update#1 - no.

2nd - RC was not nerfed. As you asid at first it is rework. Cant say i like it but most of careers does not feel any difference with old and new one. It strikes DIRECTLY pyro and shade. Merc can experience slight longer CD now, but only slight.

Criticism is good. When it is constructive and objective criticism.

Please explain to me how it is not a nerf.

After the first nerf, it gave back 1 ammo/crit, but with cleaves, you could get more.
After second nerf, it can trigger only ONCE, so doesnt matter if cleave or not.
Bigger half of the weapons have equal or less than 20 ammo pool: 5% of it is still 1.
So apparently by your logic 1 > 2 (up to 15ish)

[Briar_Black]

I honestly don't think Scrounger is overpowered. I think all weapon traits are severly underpowered.
Like the only traits you'll ever use are ammo conservation because the only weapon that's going to get anything else from traits is the hagbane with Bonus Damage stacking trait.
This is why you'll almost never use anything but Swift Slaying on a melee weapon as well.
None of these "Traits" are really worth taking, the only thing that makes a trait worth having at all is the extra ammo conservation.
Frankly, they really need to look at creating some more impactful traits. If they want to focus on balancing the classes first, that's fine, but almost all of the traits are utterly useless.

[Medojedova zhouba]

Scrounger was fine in first nerf. 1 ammo per critical hit was ok and fair to the others... I don´t know who exactly posted it, but someone on this forum posted matematical reason, why is this new scrounger and RC bad for many carrers and usefull only for few careers like Huntsman, WS and BH. I don´t know how to find it, but it was very good reason, in numbers, why this actual nerf is totally unbalanced. BH will be still with ammo, because if critical hit will be every 6 seconds and this trait will be active every 5 seconds.... his guaranted critical hit and his high critical chance is laughing at this trait so for him? No changes. But for others? Bullying for the rest of the careers except Ranger Veteran.... he is supposed to be with "infinite" ammo thx to his talent.

[Ardariel]

Originally posted by HunApo:

Originally posted by Ardariel:

1st - scrounger now, after update #2, is good for ranged careers and bad for melee. For ranged careers you still can utilise it to preserve your ammunition. It works fine for LB, ELB, xbow and repXbow. THis "nerf" strikes careers with low ammo count so they are dedicated more as melee now. Is that a nerf? Compared to live version - yes. Compared to update#1 - no.

2nd - RC was not nerfed. As you asid at first it is rework. Cant say i like it but most of careers does not feel any difference with old and new one. It strikes DIRECTLY pyro and shade. Merc can experience slight longer CD now, but only slight.

Criticism is good. When it is constructive and objective criticism.

Please explain to me how it is not a nerf.

After the first nerf, it gave back 1 ammo/crit, but with cleaves, you could get more.
After second nerf, it can trigger only ONCE, so doesnt matter if cleave or not.
Bigger half of the weapons have equal or less than 20 ammo pool: 5% of it is still 1.
So apparently by your logic 1 > 2 (up to 15ish)

Because now you got 2 ammo with 1 target shot.

It means that you can actually work first of all on your main job - kill threats with ranged instead of aiming horde to restore your ammo. Specials and elites becomes your biggest priority, regardless how much ammo you have left. ANd thats nice, IMO.

1st change was direct nerf, and good one.
2nd change was not a nerk, but rework/rebalance, making it better suit its role. For example to understand better (dont take this as absolute analogy, lewl) if you change spoon to be a for you would definetly have harder time to eat a soup with it, but it would do better job at eating smth solid (like meat). 1st change was a nerf. 2nd was rebalance. Still nerf overall, but exact 2nd change is not.

[Mastin Estepario]

Originally posted by Medojedova zhouba:

Scrounger was fine in first nerf. 1 ammo per critical hit was ok and fair to the others... I don´t know who exactly posted it, but someone on this forum posted matematical reason, why is this new scrounger and RC bad for many carrers and usefull only for few careers like Huntsman, WS and BH. I don´t know how to find it, but it was very good reason, in numbers, why this actual nerf is totally unbalanced. BH will be still with ammo, because if critical hit will be every 6 seconds and this trait will be active every 5 seconds.... his guaranted critical hit and his high critical chance is laughing at this trait so for him? No changes. But for others? Bullying for the rest of the careers except Ranger Veteran.... he is supposed to be with "infinite" ammo thx to his talent.

It was illogical that all careers with any ranged weapon were used with scrounger, and get infinite ammo, even with low crit % , now you can play it with a high crit % class, just logic, you have more traits and you have to choose depending of class/weapon, now it´s harder play any class as full ranged or failing 50% of the shots maded as before was. I´m playing actually my ranged classes in the same way i did before beta, ah and this is a melee based game, so its nice imo.

[Medojedova zhouba]

Originally posted by Mastin Estepario:

Originally posted by Medojedova zhouba:

Scrounger was fine in first nerf. 1 ammo per critical hit was ok and fair to the others... I don´t know who exactly posted it, but someone on this forum posted matematical reason, why is this new scrounger and RC bad for many carrers and usefull only for few careers like Huntsman, WS and BH. I don´t know how to find it, but it was very good reason, in numbers, why this actual nerf is totally unbalanced. BH will be still with ammo, because if critical hit will be every 6 seconds and this trait will be active every 5 seconds.... his guaranted critical hit and his high critical chance is laughing at this trait so for him? No changes. But for others? Bullying for the rest of the careers except Ranger Veteran.... he is supposed to be with "infinite" ammo thx to his talent.

It was illogical that all careers with any ranged weapon were used with scrounger, and get infinite ammo, even with low crit % , now you can play it with a high crit % class, just logic, you have more traits and you have to choose depending of class/weapon, now it´s harder play any class as full ranged or failing 50% of the shots maded as before was. I´m playing actually my ranged classes in the same way i did before beta, ah and this is a melee based game, so its nice imo.

I get your point but...

VT2 official page
Each Hero has three careers to choose from. All careers include a unique talent tree, allowing you to spec your Hero to BEST SUIT YOUR PLASTYLE."

50+ DIFFERENT WEAPON TYPES not only melee (I know you didn´t write "ONLY", but still...)

As the Bounty Hunter, Saltzpyre dons heavy armour and prefers to kill his enemies with ranged weapons, before he has to suffer their foul stench up close. The Bounty Hunter combines melee and ranged combat, with more brute force (and less finesse) than the Witch Hunter of old.

Waystalker Kerillian is the next step in her career as a Waywatcher, reflecting her ever-increasing skills with a bow and arrow. The Waystalker specialises in elven archery in all its forms, be it pinpoint precision work or sheer volume of arrows loosened upon hordes of oncoming enemies.

Why there are in this game ranged weapons when they´re forcing us to melee with this nerfs?

This game is brutaly inspired by L4D.... and its pew pew game.... and this is exactly the same like L4D. With some changes ofc, but not a big. Assassin/Hunter Hook-rat/Smoker etc etc... So... I get your point, but I disagree.... if they want ranged careers they have to give them strong ranged traits because that is what they are supposed to be. RANGED careers with strong RANGED weapons and traits, because their melee suck in every way in comparsion with melee weapons of the other classes.