Why dual dagger nerf?

[Bruder Grimm]

Dont understand why they nerf daggers... You had a higher dmg potential if you're good at the game if you know the game mechanics for the cost of vulnerability. You need to be aware of everything around you to be effective with dual daggers and have solid aim for heads... But I guess they want the left click spamm from a save distance. Keep buffing sword and Spear which are no brainers for me... I really enjoyed getting into daggers, which had a way higher skill ceiling than other weapons and the good thing was you got rewarded for it. And now they take it... That really annoys me, not gonna lie.

[Eagle_I_am | .tv/eagle_i_am]

Agree.
What we got in new patch is OP dual swords for shade.
Daggers are dead. All hail the daggers!

Only exception - dual swords are insanely easy to play with. And now they kill armor and bosses without effort.

[Bruder Grimm]

Originally posted by Eagle_I_am:

Agree.
What we got in new patch is OP dual swords for shade.
Daggers are dead. All hail the daggers!

Only exception - dual swords are insanely easy to play with. And now they kill armor and bosses without effort.

Yea kinda sad development regarding Keril changes.

[Sotanaht]

Agreed. Dual Daggers had the highest skill ceiling/requirement of any melee weapon in the game. Yes they had the POTENTIAL to be quite powerful, so skilled players tended to use the daggers on all careers, but it came at a huge tradeoff in safety and horde clearing. Now they don't have that potential anymore and the tradeoff is even worse, so there's no reason to ever use daggers. Even if they removed dual swords from the game (which are very definitely OP) AND dagger+sword, the only class that might consider daggers then is Shade, and ONLY for boss backstabs which dual swords or sword and dagger do almost equally well.

[Bruder Grimm]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Agreed. Dual Daggers had the highest skill ceiling/requirement of any melee weapon in the game. Yes they had the POTENTIAL to be quite powerful, so skilled players tended to use the daggers on all careers, but it came at a huge tradeoff in safety and horde clearing. Now they don't have that potential anymore and the tradeoff is even worse, so there's no reason to ever use daggers. Even if they removed dual swords from the game (which are very definitely OP) AND dagger+sword, the only class that might consider daggers then is Shade, and ONLY for boss backstabs which dual swords or sword and dagger do almost equally well.

They want to create diversity between weapons and all being used and then they make dual swords op, so ALL will play them... ALL

[Bones]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Agreed. Dual Daggers had the highest skill ceiling/requirement of any melee weapon in the game.

Skill floor, you mean. Once you can handle hordes the entire game becomes easy mode with you killing elites in seconds.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Bones:

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Agreed. Dual Daggers had the highest skill ceiling/requirement of any melee weapon in the game.

Skill floor, you mean. Once you can handle hordes the entire game becomes easy mode with you killing elites in seconds.

You are always dodging, can't block for crap and always have to get uncomfortably close to enemies to do any damage at all. Even killing elites still requires headshots. They are by far the highest skill CEILING in the game, high risk high mobility gameplay. Compared to brainless weapons like the spear, glaive, halberd, executioners sword, two handed axe, two handed hammer, axe and shield, dual axes, flail and falchion, there's really no comparison.

[Jizzney_Princess]

Um, dual daggers were ridiculously OP and are now merely strong. Hordes aren't difficult if you can dodge, which you kinda need to be able to with any character. The bleed effect and insane crit chance means if you're running swift slaying you just need to dodge around hordes and hit the mobs once to get them to bleed to death. Seriously, try them with a Handmaiden and tell me these are a "high risk" weapon.

Also, I never quite understood why the daggers A) did more damage than the swords, and B) caused bleeding whereas the swords did not. Seemed a weird game design choice to me.

[Bruder Grimm]

Originally posted by Irksome_Git:

Also, I never quite understood why the daggers A) did more damage than the swords, and B) caused bleeding whereas the swords did not. Seemed a weird game design choice to me.

Remove the bleeding effect, I dont care. But calling daggers op is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Then you have to question shades ult. With every other classes I can reach nearly the same potential without the risks daggers bring.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by Werkons:

Originally posted by Irksome_Git:

Also, I never quite understood why the daggers A) did more damage than the swords, and B) caused bleeding whereas the swords did not. Seemed a weird game design choice to me.

Remove the bleeding effect, I dont care. But calling daggers op is ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. Then you have to question shades ult. With every other classes I can reach nearly the same potential without the risks daggers bring.

The bleed was weak to start with, but since the daggers are already horrible at horde clearing (or just horde-surviving), nerfing them in that area is pretty harsh.

Otherwise yes, the daggers are not strong. Shade ult is ridiculously strong, but mostly only against Monsters. Stage bosses already have some kind of protection against it that makes it reasonable, possibly even rather weak (use a purple potion on the War Camp end boss, you won't even do half his total HP in the entire duration, maybe not a quarter by yourself). I think if they added that same kind of protection to Monsters shade might be in a good spot (after reverting or even buffing daggers of course). She should be able to do good damage to bosses, not 30%+ of their HP (10-15% maybe), but one-shotting CWs with her ult that only gets 1 shot is perfectly fine and about the same power level as BH and Pyro ults.

[Kobra]

I cant understand this nerf too.Its a skill based weapon.Period and nerfing those is ridicolous.

[OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle]

I've used daggers more than any other single weapon on the elf, have seen every change the game has gone through since early betas, and this is near the top of the list of community over-reactions.

The beta's changes to daggers are completely minor. I still main DD on the builds that used them before, and very nearly nothing has changed except that the instant elite kills might demand more than one attack sometimes.

This 'high skill ceiling' crap is just ego-stroking, you could run a 5 second repeating macro for daggers and never take damage during a horde. The only thing you need to do is dodge back and forth and light attack, maybe rarely push to decrease cleave mass.

Especially with the dodge buff and changes to enemy turning, if anything they're even safer against hordes in the beta branch. The only thing DD can't do against hordes is apply the DoT to more than one target at a time, which is negligible unless you are literally the only one even attempting to damage that horde.

Against any of the harder targets or elites, they don't wipe elites and intermediates faster than every melee weapon in the game any more, which...is good. The damage on CA1 has gone down what, about ten percent? So...one more hit in a handful of cases? Oh noes, literally unplayable!

------------

They're still fine, everybody, chill out. If you're comparing them to stuff that we all know has been over-buffed in the beta, that's a bad comparison. The over-tuning on some of those other weapons in this beta needs to, and most likely will, step back before any of this goes live.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle:

This 'high skill ceiling' crap is just ego-stroking, you could run a 5 second repeating macro for daggers and never take damage during a horde. The only thing you need to do is dodge back and forth and light attack, maybe rarely push to decrease cleave mass.

Every other weapon in the game, every SINGLE one is easier to handle than the daggers. Some of them don't really do very much if anything, but they are still easier. All you are doing with this crap (and it is crap, horde behavior is semi-random, sometimes they attack without warning/warmup), is saying that the entire game is too easy. So good for you, the daggers are still the hardest weapon.

[OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle]

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Originally posted by OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle:

This 'high skill ceiling' crap is just ego-stroking, you could run a 5 second repeating macro for daggers and never take damage during a horde. The only thing you need to do is dodge back and forth and light attack, maybe rarely push to decrease cleave mass.

Every other weapon in the game, every SINGLE one is easier to handle than the daggers. Some of them don't really do very much if anything, but they are still easier. All you are doing with this crap (and it is crap, horde behavior is semi-random, sometimes they attack without warning/warmup), is saying that the entire game is too easy. So good for you, the daggers are still the hardest weapon.

I mean 3+3 is harder arithmetic than 1+1. But not by very much.

[Sotanaht]

Originally posted by OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle:

Originally posted by Sotanaht:

Every other weapon in the game, every SINGLE one is easier to handle than the daggers. Some of them don't really do very much if anything, but they are still easier. All you are doing with this crap (and it is crap, horde behavior is semi-random, sometimes they attack without warning/warmup), is saying that the entire game is too easy. So good for you, the daggers are still the hardest weapon.

I mean 3+3 is harder arithmetic than 1+1. But not by very much.

If that's how you see the entire game, you don't have any right to discuss balance at all. To you, everything is already automatically balanced no matter how much the devs buff or nerf it, because it's all so trivially easy it doesn't matter.

[Bruder Grimm]

Originally posted by OoOoOoooOOoOoorgle:

They're still fine, everybody, chill out. If you're comparing them to stuff that we all know has been over-buffed in the beta, that's a bad comparison. The over-tuning on some of those other weapons in this beta needs to, and most likely will, step back before any of this goes live.

I think nobody said DD will be unplayable. And nobody is ego stroking. It‘s just daggers are the most difficult weapon to use and it was fun getting into it and getting rewarded for it having a higher potential. Daggers got buffed yes because nobody touched them for a reason. I remember times lobbies being dodged when they saw people running daggers. With the buffs received they can be very strong in some hands. But so do other weapons aswell. And buffing swords and spear the way they plan make me question why anybody should use DD anymore. Especially when they also weaken DD. It will be a dead weapon again and that’s what the Devs actually try to prevent. That’s why I made this topic 👍😁