Bounty Hunter Saltz vs Waystalker Kerillian. Who is the better sniper?

[Slashing Prices]

Topic discussion. I play as Kerillian, and only Kerillian simply because I like sniping and improving my range with bows and learning the drop, as well as learning how to deal with panic shots up close so that it becomes second nature.

However, everytime I play with a Saltz, specifically BH Saltz, it's like I can't even do anything. Immediately, everything just dies with little effort whatsoever, and I just sit there sighing.

Everyone said that Kerillian was the Special killer over distance and even up close if you're good enough, but Saltz seems to be the meta for OP range.

[Xarko]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Vacca:

I am deadeye accurate with xbow bh over ANY distance

with 300 confirmed kills and trained in gorilla warfare

[Teddy]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Xarko:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Vacca:

I am deadeye accurate with xbow bh over ANY distance

with 300 confirmed kills and trained in gorilla warfare

Your IP address is being traced right now.

[Vacca]

aright, walked into that one.

[Step Sis Proof Appliances]

BH due to the amount of crits the class gets,and HM due to the increased zoom and the power the long bow brings to the table

[Mastigos]

1 body shot = 1 kill = RAW SKILL

I'm talking about the class as a whole, not aiming a crossbow (which is comparitively easy).
Playing a career to its maximum potential, while being attacked by a mixed horde + your ally is being dragged away by a Hookrat, is no easy feat.

BH requires more skill to play at his best than a Pyro at her best, a WS at her best, or a Merc at his best. Or any other class, for that matter. (Notice I said 'at his best' not 'to play.' There is a large difference there.)

But if BH vs waystalekr - i`d say waystalker. Both of them have pretty slowish ranged weaponry, but WS have zoom and bows that can strike over obsticles.

Regular Crossbow + BH passively increased reload + Swift Reload talent = a fast, powerful sniping weapon.

Regular crossbow has zoom.

I mean BH is just a better sniper than WS is.
Again, if you're not playing WS with Hagsbane, you're doing it wrong 99% of the time.
It would be like playing BH with Brace of Pistols: doable, but hardly doing it well.

I am deadeye accurate with xbow bh over ANY distance, from very close to extremely long. the ONLY advantage waystaker has over bh is the F which can sometimes hit specials over impassable areas, for example a teammate who didn't jump down the slope and got caught alone by a packmaster.

Other than that, bh>waystalker. Always. You can't beat a 100% kill to ALL specials with one auto-crit shot.

^this

A much, much more comparable example is
Hagsbane WS vs Volley Crossbow BH
As they ultimately function in much the same capacity.
Both deal with hordes well.
Both deal with elites well.
Both are better vs bosses/mini-bosses better than most other options.

The difference is that Volley Crossbow takes more skill to actually hit a target with (which is a weakness, not a strength), and deals less consistent DPS; the tradeoff is that VXBow has virtually unlimited ammo at all times, can force crit, offers much higher burst damage, and deals with specials/elites/hordes/mini-bosses faster than Hagsbane. Plus, VXBow offers huge CC potential, moreso than Hagsbane by a long shot. (ranged CC is a huge deal in HBFS + Vanguard Legendary Deed Runs.)

BH has the better ranged weaponry than WS.

Then again, WS has great ranged weapons despite technically being inferior to BH's - plus a very, very good ult, passive regeneration, and great melee options.

So BH and WS are both great classes. BH wins out by a small margin, but I'd gladly roll with both in a Legendary Deed Run, or any Legendary map.

BH due to the amount of crits the class gets,and HM due to the increased zoom and the power the long bow brings to the table

Just to be clear for everyone reading....

If we're talking about the *normal* Crossbow for BH, it has just as much zoom (if not more) than the Huntsman's Longbow -- plus more headshot damage, much LESS spread(i.e. more accurate by a large margin) and more overall damage-per-arrow. What's more, BH has the fastest reload speed of any career in the game [when talented; tied for fastest if not], and since the normal Crossbow's DPS is directly affected by reload speed, BH uses the Crossbow the best in the game.

Now the situation where the Longbow wins out over the Crossbow is versus shielded/armored targets, which the Longbow partially ignores/breaks. Fortunately for Crossbow/BH users, 1) those targets are *relatively* rare, and 2) crits pierce armor anyway, and BH can reliably build around crits and get Cruel Fortune when using a normal Crossbow -- therefore, a hell of a lot of crits.

So ultimately, the Longbow and the Crossbow are roughly equal at killing elites; perhaps the Crossbow wins out ultimately, as it can OHKO anything to the head with a crit except CW, and can non-crit OHKO headshot pretty much any elite outside CW/Berserkers/Maulers (Maulers have armored heads, even though they are technically a weak spot, its better to aim for midsection stomach)
When it comes to killing specials, they are roughly equal again; Crossbow has a slight advantage as it can reliably OHKO specials across huge distances, whereas the Longbow is not accurate at extreme distances.
When it comes to hordes, the Crossbow puts the Longbow to absolute shame. No constest.
When it comes to bosses/mini-bosses, the Longbow has about a 20% advantage. Not much, but noticable. However, the Crossbow has much more reliable ammo regeneration, and can easily transition from hitting the boss to OHKOing elites/horde adds, making it an (imo) equally viable choice, if not overall better.

Huntsman just isn't as good as BH at killing elites, as I routinely get double-to-triple the elite kills of *good* Huntsmen on any given map. HOWEVER, Huntsman clearly, clearly has more team-oriented buffs, and is better vs armored/shielded targets/boss units, giving Huntsman a powerful niche -- especially when supporting a team of ranged careers.

BH and Huntsman working together are amazing. I suggest picking both and watching the bodies drop, because this is a co-op game and they fit together like two pieces to a puzzle. They really do cover each others weaknesses and compliment each others strengths.

[spuddy]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Crow's Teeth:

1 body shot = 1 kill = RAW SKILL

I'm talking about the class as a whole, not aiming a crossbow (which is comparitively easy).
Playing a career to its maximum potential, while being attacked by a mixed horde + your ally is being dragged away by a Hookrat, is no easy feat.

BH requires more skill to play at his best than a Pyro at her best, a WS at her best, or a Merc at his best. Or any other class, for that matter. (Notice I said 'at his best' not 'to play.' There is a large difference there.)

But if BH vs waystalekr - i`d say waystalker. Both of them have pretty slowish ranged weaponry, but WS have zoom and bows that can strike over obsticles.

Regular Crossbow + BH passively increased reload + Swift Reload talent = a fast, powerful sniping weapon.

Regular crossbow has zoom.

I mean BH is just a better sniper than WS is.
Again, if you're not playing WS with Hagsbane, you're doing it wrong 99% of the time.
It would be like playing BH with Brace of Pistols: doable, but hardly doing it well.

I am deadeye accurate with xbow bh over ANY distance, from very close to extremely long. the ONLY advantage waystaker has over bh is the F which can sometimes hit specials over impassable areas, for example a teammate who didn't jump down the slope and got caught alone by a packmaster.

Other than that, bh>waystalker. Always. You can't beat a 100% kill to ALL specials with one auto-crit shot.

^this

A much, much more comparable example is
Hagsbane WS vs Volley Crossbow BH
As they ultimately function in much the same capacity.
Both deal with hordes well.
Both deal with elites well.
Both are better vs bosses/mini-bosses better than most other options.

The difference is that Volley Crossbow takes more skill to actually hit a target with (which is a weakness, not a strength), and deals less consistent DPS; the tradeoff is that VXBow has virtually unlimited ammo at all times, can force crit, offers much higher burst damage, and deals with specials/elites/hordes/mini-bosses faster than Hagsbane. Plus, VXBow offers huge CC potential, moreso than Hagsbane by a long shot. (ranged CC is a huge deal in HBFS + Vanguard Legendary Deed Runs.)

BH has the better ranged weaponry than WS.

Then again, WS has great ranged weapons despite technically being inferior to BH's - plus a very, very good ult, passive regeneration, and great melee options.

So BH and WS are both great classes. BH wins out by a small margin, but I'd gladly roll with both in a Legendary Deed Run, or any Legendary map.

BH due to the amount of crits the class gets,and HM due to the increased zoom and the power the long bow brings to the table

Just to be clear for everyone reading....

If we're talking about the *normal* Crossbow for BH, it has just as much zoom (if not more) than the Huntsman's Longbow -- plus more headshot damage, much LESS spread(i.e. more accurate by a large margin) and more overall damage-per-arrow. What's more, BH has the fastest reload speed of any career in the game [when talented; tied for fastest if not], and since the normal Crossbow's DPS is directly affected by reload speed, BH uses the Crossbow the best in the game.

Now the situation where the Longbow wins out over the Crossbow is versus shielded/armored targets, which the Longbow partially ignores/breaks. Fortunately for Crossbow/BH users, 1) those targets are *relatively* rare, and 2) crits pierce armor anyway, and BH can reliably build around crits and get Cruel Fortune when using a normal Crossbow -- therefore, a hell of a lot of crits.

So ultimately, the Longbow and the Crossbow are roughly equal at killing elites; perhaps the Crossbow wins out ultimately, as it can OHKO anything to the head with a crit except CW, and can non-crit OHKO headshot pretty much any elite outside CW/Berserkers/Maulers (Maulers have armored heads, even though they are technically a weak spot, its better to aim for midsection stomach)
When it comes to killing specials, they are roughly equal again; Crossbow has a slight advantage as it can reliably OHKO specials across huge distances, whereas the Longbow is not accurate at extreme distances.
When it comes to hordes, the Crossbow puts the Longbow to absolute shame. No constest.
When it comes to bosses/mini-bosses, the Longbow has about a 20% advantage. Not much, but noticable. However, the Crossbow has much more reliable ammo regeneration, and can easily transition from hitting the boss to OHKOing elites/horde adds, making it an (imo) equally viable choice, if not overall better.

Huntsman just isn't as good as BH at killing elites, as I routinely get double-to-triple the elite kills of *good* Huntsmen on any given map. HOWEVER, Huntsman clearly, clearly has more team-oriented buffs, and is better vs armored/shielded targets/boss units, giving Huntsman a powerful niche -- especially when supporting a team of ranged careers.

BH and Huntsman working together are amazing. I suggest picking both and watching the bodies drop, because this is a co-op game and they fit together like two pieces to a puzzle. They really do cover each others weaknesses and compliment each others strengths.

WHC is a much harder class to play well. Bounty is fairly easy imo.

[Mastigos]

BH not only requires proficiency in general ranged combat, but also in melee combat. And at killing a single target quicky. Weapon-swapping constantly. Manually-aimed, easy-to-botch ult. Requires great positioning. Requires defense through offense. Requires good bomb-aiming, rewards (moreso than average) good timing and use of potions. Needs ammo management, and either (VXBow: reload management) or (Crossbow: snap-sniping). Requires good pistol aim and creative mixing of melee and ranged, kiting and pressing melee advantage.

And a great number of other skills that I could mention, but I'm already writing a guide so I'll get to that later.

WHC requires a lot of skill to play at his best, too -- in fact, Saltzpyre *in general* is the hardest character to play at his best. But I'd hardly say that WHC requires more skill to play well than BH - let alone far more skill.

That's not to put WHC down. Compared to most careers, WHC is hard mode. But so is BH.

[Step Sis Proof Appliances]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Crow's Teeth:

BH not only requires proficiency in general ranged combat, but also in melee combat. And at killing a single target quicky. Weapon-swapping constantly. Manually-aimed, easy-to-botch ult. Requires great positioning. Requires defense through offense. Requires good bomb-aiming, rewards (moreso than normal) good timing and use of potions. Needs ammo management, and either (VXBow: reload management) or (Crossbow: snap-sniping). Requires good pistol aim and creative mixing of melee and ranged, kiting and pressing melee advantage.

And a great number of other skills that I could mention, but I'm already writing a guide so I'll get to that later.

WHC requires a lot of skill to play at his best, too -- in fact, Saltzpyre *in general* is the hardest character to play at his best. But I'd hardly say that WHC requires more skill to play well than BH - let alone far more skill.

That's not to put WHC down. Compared to most careers, WHC is hard mode. But so is BH.

Bh allows people that are halfway proficient to do well.It's not that hard of a class to play honestly.With the amount of crits you get with his passive you can delete pretty much anything at range before any threat gets close enough to you.And rapier is powerful in itself.I will say it's nice to have BH on your team but it's not that hard of a class to excell at.

[Vacca]

tbh I find bh easy peasy in melee thanks to the most OP one-handed weapon in the game, the godlike falchion. seriously, extremely high attack speed, good cleave, godly push attack... some classes have it hard vs hordes, like dual dagger shade without hagsbane shots left. but bh? chop away.

[Mastigos]

Bh allows people that are halfway proficient to do well.It's not that hard of a class to play honestly.

tbh I find bh easy peasy in melee

Something doesn't add up, because a good 75-80% of the BHs I play with are terrible.

I once read a guide that said BH is a very difficult class to master, and that most BHs aren't skilled enough to make the class shine. That fits my experience perfectly.
What's more, logically and reasonably, BH is theoretically a hard class to master because of the wide variety of skills one MUST practice well in order to play the career well.

Remember, I'm talking about mastery of the career, not playing halfway acceptably.

WS with Hagsbane is far easier.
Pyro with Beam/Bolt staff is far easier.
Huntsman Kruber is about equal at ranged combat, but has easier melee weapons + his ult is braindead-easy. And doesn't need to weapon-swap to play at his fullest. Also doesn't need to concern himself with bombs.

most OP one-handed weapon in the game, the godlike falchion. seriously, extremely high attack speed, good cleave, godly push attack... some classes have it hard vs hordes, like dual dagger shade without hagsbane shots left. but bh? chop away.

I've always been torn between the Falcion and the Rapier.
Clearly, for BH, these are his two best weapons.
I've been using the Rapier so long that I've become good at slicing through hordes with it -- plus, it allows BH to move at full speed while blocking, has an awesome light charged attack, can deal huge headshot damage with heavy charged attack (even through armor), and has a ranged alt fire (which is not to be underestimated - actually a huge boon).

I'd like to hear more of your thoughts on the Falc, though.... I seriously want to use it well, but I just can't see its strengths after using the Rapier for so long. Help me out?

[Xarko]

I also think BH is one of the easiest careers to absolutely wreck sh*t with.

[Mastigos]

I also think BH is one of the easiest careers to absolutely wreck sh*t with.

I think you're confusing "the ability to absolutely wreck ♥♥♥♥" and "ease of doing so."

BH is capable of dealing becoming a wrecking ball, but it's not something which is easy to master. It took me over 200 hours to become what I'd consider a decent BH, and over 250 hours to become what I'd consider "good."

The fruits of discipline: with practice comes strength.

But in no way did that come easily. In fact, I can pick up Pyro or WS and with the same skills I've acquired through playing BH, do extremely well with them. Well enough to *know* there was little more I could've done better.
Hagsbane and Beam/Bolt are far easier to play - and master - than VXbow and Xbow. Hags/Beam/Bolt are about on the same level of difficulty as Repeater Pistol, maybe slightly easier. Whereas arrow-based weaponry are considerably more demanding.
With BH, I feel and more importantly I know I could have done better after every match. The nature of Blessed Shots + aiming tri-shots/sniping + positioning does this.

[Step Sis Proof Appliances]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Crow's Teeth:

I also think BH is one of the easiest careers to absolutely wreck sh*t with.

I think you're confusing "the ability to absolutely wreck ♥♥♥♥" and "ease of doing so."

BH is capable of dealing becoming a wrecking ball, but it's not something which is easy to master. It took me over 200 hours to become what I'd consider a decent BH, and over 250 hours to become what I'd consider "good."

The fruits of discipline: with practice comes strength.

But in no way did that come easily. In fact, I can pick up Pyro or WS and with the same skills I've acquired through playing BH, do extremely well with them. Well enough to *know* there was little more I could've done better.
Hagsbane and Beam/Bolt are far easier to play - and master - than VXbow and Xbow. Hags/Beam/Bolt are about on the same level of difficulty as Repeater Pistol, maybe slightly easier. Whereas arrow-based weaponry are considerably more demanding.
With BH, I feel and more importantly I know I could have done better after every match. The nature of Blessed Shots + aiming tri-shots/sniping + positioning does this.

You can still become skilled at the class better than the majority or w/e but it doesn't change the fact that BH is easy to play.Not that the other classes you mentioned aren't easy also.

[Xarko]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Crow's Teeth:

I think you're confusing "the ability to absolutely wreck ♥♥♥♥" and "ease of doing so."

Nah, not really. Its you who is confusing something. Im talking about the career of BH, whereas you are talking about weapons.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Crow's Teeth:

Hagsbane and Beam/Bolt are far easier to play - and master - than VXbow and Xbow. Hags/Beam/Bolt are about on the same level of difficulty as Repeater Pistol, maybe slightly easier. Whereas arrow-based weaponry are considerably more demanding.

BH is an easy class to play well, there is no way around it. I dont care that X career + X weapon do this and that. Thats a weapon problem, not a career problem. BH can do amazing with any weapon and its easyyy to do so.

[spuddy]

Oprindeligt skrevet af Xarko:

Oprindeligt skrevet af Crow's Teeth:

I think you're confusing "the ability to absolutely wreck ♥♥♥♥" and "ease of doing so."

Nah, not really. Its you who is confusing something. Im talking about the career of BH, whereas you are talking about weapons.

Oprindeligt skrevet af Crow's Teeth:

Hagsbane and Beam/Bolt are far easier to play - and master - than VXbow and Xbow. Hags/Beam/Bolt are about on the same level of difficulty as Repeater Pistol, maybe slightly easier. Whereas arrow-based weaponry are considerably more demanding.

BH is an easy class to play well, there is no way around it. I dont care that X career + X weapon do this and that. Thats a weapon problem, not a career problem. BH can do amazing with any weapon and its easyyy to do so.

I completely agree! I dont get this obsession with bounty players that need to validate how high a skill cap it has when lets be honest nothing in the game has a very high skill cap.
If you like playing him fine dont worry about it.