should every class have a ranged weapon that requires no ammo?

[Taddy Mason]

just like it says in the title. i don't know or care much about warhammer lore, i just think everyone should be able to use some sort of ranged weapon that requires no ammo and uses heat or some other mechanic to regulate how many shots it can fire/damage it can do before overheating/needing to wait a bit before being used again.
thoughts?

edit:
am i not making it clear enough i don't want extra ranged attacks or unlimited ranged attacks in this game? that i just want the same mechanics bardin's drakefire weapons and sienna's staves to be applied to a weapon the other 3 characters use? i'm not sure what i'm not making clear about that and nobody has said how or why that wouldn't be possible from a lore or gameplay point of view. every response disagreeing with me seems to be people misunderstanding what i'm looking for-which is cooldown bars and the risk of death for every member of the party as opposed to spamming ammo like crazy whenever they're near an ammo crate or being unable to help at all from a distance when you're nowhere near a crate.
i like the idea of risking death or hurting yourself in order to avoid risking death so you can fire a shot at a special and help out a teammate or any one of a number of other scenarios i've come across when using the drakefires or sienna's ranged weapons. if the whole team had to watch out for that, i think it would be both interesting and fun gameplay wise. more so than sitting near an ammo crate firing unlimited rounds when there's a horde coming, or being unable to do anything to help teammates from a distance when you're out of ammo and there are no crates nearby.

[Taddy Mason]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Bob:

The most they should do is up the base ammo of most weapons for non ranged careers. 12 shots on handgun for merc/fk isn't exactly great.

i don't think they'll do that considering they reduced the amount of ammo for everyone by a certain percentage shortly after leaving beta. i think it was 25%-i vaguely remember having a bow with 100 arrows during beta and then only 75 post launch as the elf, but it's been so long since i played her and i'm not willing to slog thru all my vermintide videos on youtube to find the ones showing it to find out.

i like the ratling gun idea. they seem to have infinite ammo

[Franz]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Taddy Mason:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Marlekin:

Isnt that just saying "i think its fun to ignore ammo crates" without explaining why?

no-the "i think it would be fun" IS the reason why. i didn't think i needed anything more than to want more/a different kind of fun from the game. do i?

That's a good reason to make a mod, and methinks it would be a popular one.
On the other hand, the title of your thread, what you wrote as your op and the fact you posted in general discussions instead of mod discussions makes it sound more like you were suggesting/asking about "core game" balance changes, hence the reactions you've been getting.

[Marlekin]

Well, this is your thread, your party.

So if you want to propose changes I would expect a better argument than "i like the colour red so all cars should be red. because some cars are already red, yet some arent". One main requirement to get something changed is to convince people changes are required. And thats gonna take a little more than just your personal preference on anything.

But, if you want my take on it, I think ammo provides just an added layer of variety and requires added awareness in order to not run out of ammo when you need it the most. I think learning to manage your ammunition can be rewarding, and that sharing ammo pickups correctly just gives that extra coop feeling to a coop-game. Everyone having ammo/unlimited ammo weapons could take away some of the coop in a coop game.

See what I did there? Thats a whole lot more than "I like ammo so i think ammo should be in the game".

[Taddy Mason]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Franz:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Taddy Mason:

no-the "i think it would be fun" IS the reason why. i didn't think i needed anything more than to want more/a different kind of fun from the game. do i?

That's a good reason to make a mod, and methinks it would be a popular one.
On the other hand, the title of your thread, what you wrote as your op and the fact you posted in general discussions instead of mod discussions makes it sound more like you were suggesting/asking about "core game" balance changes, hence the reactions you've been getting.

because i'm not just talking about a mod, i AM talking about "core game" changes. i have to make the mod right now because i can't wait for the devs seeing as they might never put it in the game themselves for any number of reasons. i'd like the devs to give all the characters a weapon which requires no ammo just like my OP said-this topic has sort of slid into a mod discussion as well haha.

[Spudbar]

This is what the modded realm is for.

[Taddy Mason]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Marlekin:

Well, this is your thread, your party.

So if you want to propose changes I would expect a better argument than "i like the colour red so all cars should be red. because some cars are already red, yet some arent". One main requirement to get something changed is to convince people changes are required. And thats gonna take a little more than just your personal preference on anything.

But, if you want my take on it, I think ammo provides just an added layer of variety and requires added awareness in order to not run out of ammo when you need it the most. I think learning to manage your ammunition can be rewarding, and that sharing ammo pickups correctly just gives that extra coop feeling to a coop-game. Everyone having ammo/unlimited ammo weapons could take away some of the coop in a coop game.

See what I did there? Thats a whole lot more than "I like ammo so i think ammo should be in the game".

that was never my argument, please stop pretending like i'm not giving a valid reason for what i want. it comes off poorly.
i understand that you feel i needed to provide more of a reason other than "i think would make the game more fun", but i did not feel like i needed to provide much more of a reason than that, or i would have mentioned my other reasons earlier-these are just opinions, dude-i didn't expect ot have to give a full list of all the reasons i reached the opinion i had. if i had known you required such a thing from the get go, i probably would have provided it in my OP-but again, it is my opinion that wanted something added simply because i think it would be fun is a good enough reason in itself. i'm sorry you disagree, but since you do, here you go:
i think your argument about conserving ammo and sharing ammo pickups is no different than conserving heat buildup so you don't overheat and die/use up unnecessary health items when you need it the most. everyone having unlimited ammo COULD take away some of the co-op, but clearly i don't think it will or i wouldn't have made this thread.

i think there's just as much co-op involved in making sure everyone is keeping an eye on their heat guages (or whatever the buildup bar is) as there is in everyone conserving ammo. you're still conserving ammo in a way, it's just this "ammo" is how much of that cooldown bar you have left before you take health damage-which itself adds a layer of depth, variety and requires extra awareness. especially if you know everyone has one and might burn to death at any moment-because there's no dialogue for when your heat guage is almost maxed like there is when you run out of ammo.

[Taddy Mason]

is that enough? or do i need to keep providing reasons? i'm not trying to change your mind or anything about whether this should be added to the game-i merely wanted to know if others thought like i did and wanted a similar mechanic. not sure why you needed so many reasons in the first place, this isn't an argument or debate or anything like that where we're required to defend our opinions or beat each other in a battle of words

[Taddy Mason]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Spudbar:

This is what the modded realm is for.

agreed, but i also would like to see it in the official realm-hence why i posted it here.

[Taddy Mason]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Burke:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Taddy Mason:

magic is the reason they'd magically reappear, though, right?
also, why do you feel this way? does it make the game less fun for you or something?

I don't want to go into a protracted rant (yes, this is the short one, trust me, I hate infinite ammo) about it but it's a crutch that makes people use specific careers and specific weapons simply to lean on that crutch as hard as possible. The Witch Hunter should be the preferred character in a group but because the Bounty Hunter can spam crossbow an entire round with one-shot killing virtually everything why play Witch Hunter or Zealot?

Also, the Drakefire pistols and flamethrower aren't really that great in damage-per-shot but because you never have to reload their ammo they are by virtue of infinite ammo alone superior.

The Waystalker should have an expanded quiver but, once again, ammo regen goes over the top. A Waystalker should be using the bow strategically and not as a machinegun.

At this point you get the idea. This game has so much variety but certain characters are meta simply on their ability to spam ranged weapons all day long.

And finally, yes, I know there are plenty of people who play other classes because they prefer a certain look or character style and plenty of anecdotes of "oh, I see plenty of people play <insert> over BH/WS/HM" but I'm talking about the mass majority of people here and that one guy who plays Zealot because he enjoys it even if it's to their detriment isn't proof to the contrary. There is no way anybody can say that they encounter more Witch Hunters than they do Bounty Hunters or Iron Breakers using shotguns over Drakefire.

i understand where you're coming from and respectfully maintain my opinion of disagreement about infinite ammo. thanks for the depth to your opinion, it is greatly appreciated to know why you feel the way you do.

[Teddy]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Taddy Mason:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Teddy Misiek:

No. Because ranged combat is overpowered as it is. Besides, you may not care about the lore but the developers clearly do; there is simply no such weapon that Kruber or Saltzpyre could have in their disposal.

i think it's just an opinion some people have that ranged combat is overpowered. i disagree that it is, especially on champ and legend.
and i figured with it being a magical world and all, anything is possible. i'm still gonna work on my mods to make all of them have ammoless weapons, but it's good to know that would technically be lorebreaking. guess i'll have to delve into the lore after all and find a way to get them weapons that might make sense, cause the idea of a whole party ignoring ammo crates and ammo is too appealing to me for me to ignore based on silly lore restrictions.
i might be able to pass it off with something as simple as magically altered or enchanted guns/bows/crossbows

Warhammer is a magickal fantasy universe, that is true, but it is built on a solid step of rules. It's hard to explain so I won't try to and botch it, but know that people working with Warhammer cannot just make up anything they want to, for two reasons: first the aforementioned rules (like magic works in so and so way, no deviations) and second, more importantly...

*drums*

... The Games Workshop Licence! GW has to approve anything that FatShark and other studios put into their Warhammer games, and they are not likely to approve of anything deviating from the established lore unless the gameplay really, really requires it (.e.g Sienna's ability to spam spells out of her ar... staff).

[Marlekin]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Taddy Mason:

is that enough?

I think we could go on, but I dont think you and I will agree on this.

Either way, Im off to work. We may disagree, but I hope you have a nice day.

[Filthy Casual]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Taddy Mason:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Tengri:

No.

why not? more info is needed

Opprinnelig skrevet av Taddy Mason:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Marlekin:

Isnt that just saying "i think its fun to ignore ammo crates" without explaining why?

no-the "i think it would be fun" IS the reason why. i didn't think i needed anything more than to want more/a different kind of fun from the game. do i?

Well I disagree, that would make the game less fun in my opinion.

[Skearn]

you know the reason that ammo not being unlimited is what makes some classes fun. it forces you to improvise and there are plenty of ppl that like that kinda thing.

also you commented about magically reappearing ammo, but iirc thats not how magic works in warhammer lore. kruber, saltzpyre and gorekson do not have any kind of connection to magic at all, the only even remotely close in any sense would be saltz through sigmar. and kerillian is an elf so im not touching that gay ♥♥♥♥ XD

im all for fun changes but changing core apsects on the game itself just isnt the way about it even with 1 or 2 select weapons having that feature. it needs to make sense lorewise, i would love to see kruber wielding wild magic with wild card effects tho:D

[Taddy Mason]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Skearn:

you know the reason that ammo not being unlimited is what makes some classes fun. it forces you to improvise and there are plenty of ppl that like that kinda thing.

also you commented about magically reappearing ammo, but iirc thats not how magic works in warhammer lore. kruber, saltzpyre and gorekson do not have any kind of connection to magic at all, the only even remotely close in any sense would be saltz through sigmar. and kerillian is an elf so im not touching that gay ♥♥♥♥ XD

im all for fun changes but changing core apsects on the game itself just isnt the way about it even with 1 or 2 select weapons having that feature. it needs to make sense lorewise, i would love to see kruber wielding wild magic with wild card effects tho:D

i disagree about that comment of ammo not being unlimited making some classes more fun.

and you don't need to have any connection to magic to use an enchanted weapon or magic weapon, do you? are there no magic weapons in warhammer? if they only work by drawing on the innate magic of their weilder, fine...but that kind of sucks.

[Taddy Mason]

Opprinnelig skrevet av Marlekin:

Opprinnelig skrevet av Taddy Mason:

is that enough?

I think we could go on, but I dont think you and I will agree on this.

Either way, Im off to work. We may disagree, but I hope you have a nice day.

i never expected you to agree with me, i just wanted to voice my opinion about wanting unlimited ammo weapons for every character without having to give more and more and more reasons explaining why i thought that would be a good or fun idea. i expected disagreement-i just didn't expect so much pushback on the idea that wanting something added or changed in the game for the sake of it being fun to not be a good enough excuse to want that. i never expected someone to think that, let alone not let up til i gave a different reason. i thought it was weird, is all.