Shade Class - Assassin talent is just a nerfed version of Smiter?

[Human Disguise]

Am I missing something here?

It seems like getting the Assassin talent just gives you a damage nerf to headshots and crits on any enemy that isn't staggered AND lacks the first enemy hit is always staggered bonus from Smiter.
Using a spear on our happy training dummy friends seem to confirm the damage nerf. Is there any actual reason to use the Assassin talent?

[Disabled Velociraptor]

Enhanced power is basically the way to go imo

[Ardariel]

no, assassin is better than smiter. With smiter you can only get 20% bonus on first target, while with assassin you can get full 40%. Training dummies are poor way to measure dmg output, sadly. GO on modded realm.

[EasternTime]

Both talents actually are used against enemies you can't just push. Against most foes, push will instantly raise up their stagger count up to 2, granting you that sweet 40% of extra damage.
Smiter counts first enemy hit as having stagger count 1 if they have none, granting 20% extra damage on that enemy.
Assassin have some confusing wording, but all that it does is counts any enemy which you strike with critical hit or headshot as having a stagger count 2, and you deal 140% of damage to it. This is a modifier that add after base damage and doesn't overwrite anything.
I don't get why do you think that it nerfs headshots; in my test, I did 14.25 damage on headshot with Smiter and 16.5 with Assassin, which is consistent with math (120% and 140% of base headshot damage respectively).

If you have dedicated staggerer in your party, you should probably run either Power or Smiter. Otherwise you may consider going for Assassin if you have at least 30% of critical chance, which is possible on shade: 5% base + 5% bonus from class + 10% from weapons + 5% trinket + 10% crit chance on light attacks with daggers = 35% crit chance on light attack, which should grant you a lot of temp HP and Assassin procs.

P.S. Dummy isn't a tool for exact and reliable testing. Use Creature Spawner + Show Damage + any mod for god-mode on Modded Realm, don't forget to enable AI.
P.P.S. Please don't play Shade with spear on Legend+.

[EasternTime]

P.P.P.S. I should probably note that I tested damage on Shade with 630 power with Spear on a Recrut difficulty Stormvermin headshot.

[NoSavy¯\_(ツ)_/¯]

Assassin + Huntress + dual daggers is amazing.

[Fryskar]

@EasternTime
I'm pretty sure you don't get the stats for both weapons, only the one you currently use. So you'd have 30% not 35.

[Deja Vu]

Smiter nerfs your cleave, because you don't get stagger bonuses from secondary targets anymore.

[Kjerad]

Originally posted by Deja Vu:

Smiter nerfs your cleave, because you don't get stagger bonuses from secondary targets anymore.

It doesn't. It's 20 (first target only)/20/40% damage bonus depending on stagger level, instead of 0/20/40%.

[Licher.Rus]

Originally posted by EasternTime:

+ 5% bonus from class

???
Maybe I've missed something, but there is no such passive anymore

[Vindred]

Originally posted by KJeraD:

It doesn't. It's 20 (first target only)/20/40% damage bonus depending on stagger level, instead of 0/20/40%.

https://www.reddit.com/r/Vermintide/comments/cot1tq/everything_you_wanted_to_know_about_winds_of/

"Smiter: The first target hit will always count as if having at least 1 stack of stagger, while completely removing the stagger bonus from all targets beyond the first. Special note: This does work on bosses."

[EasternTime]

Originally posted by Fryskar:

@EasternTime
I'm pretty sure you don't get the stats for both weapons, only the one you currently use. So you'd have 30% not 35.

This is false. Half of the breakpoints relies on fact that you get all the special qualities from all of your items equipped. Weapons are not different from a trinket or charm in that regard. I know, it's a bit confusing after playing diablo-like games.

Originally posted by Deja Vu:

Smiter nerfs your cleave, because you don't get stagger bonuses from secondary targets anymore.

This is either bug or untrue. Smiter is not supposed to change anything about how stagger tiers work. Maybe I tested this after it was fixed, because this thread is 16 days old, and there were several patches after that. Will re-test now.

Originally posted by SilverWF:

Originally posted by EasternTime:

+ 5% bonus from class

???
Maybe I've missed something, but there is no such passive anymore

It's actually still there, a hidden passive. Well, maybe not anymore, but there is no way I'm re-doing a full 3k strikes test right now.

[EasternTime]

"Smiter: The first target hit will always count as if having at least 1 stack of stagger, while completely removing the stagger bonus from all targets beyond the first. Special note: This does work on bosses."

Alright, this is stupid, but it's actually true. What was wrong was my testing method.
As far as I can see, this skill prevents you from benefiting of damage buff on secondary targets, at least, with stagger count 2.

[Deja Vu]

Put 3 dummies in a line and test with a high cleave weapon, it shows up on them.

[Human Disguise]

Originally posted by EasternTime:

I don't get why do you think that it nerfs headshots; in my test, I did 14.25 damage on headshot with Smiter and 16.5 with Assassin, which is consistent with math (120% and 140% of base headshot damage respectively).

P.S. Dummy isn't a tool for exact and reliable testing. Use Creature Spawner + Show Damage + any mod for god-mode on Modded Realm, don't forget to enable AI.
P.P.S. Please don't play Shade with spear on Legend+.

I was using the spear just for testing since it was easiest to get to hit the same spot every time in a cramped area. Equipped with Smiter and stabbing the dummy in the head, damage was consistent at 1000 every time the dummy was hit from a complete standstill. Assassin was, similarly only 825 with all other conditions the same. The damage from Assassin, if I remember right(I just didn't care afterwards because both other talents seemed more useful) didn't meet the damage of Smiter until the dummy was constantly rocking and taking additional damage ramp up, and then I only noticed it matching after the fourth(I think) strike. The critical strikes fell in with similar results in the test attacks.

If Assassin is for cleaving multiple enemies, while Smiter is only for 1 target it makes more sense to set up up that way (though I would argue that the terms should be swapped because an assassination is usually against 1 target)

As for your P.P.S. note...ehh...you use what you're good with/like in a game. Just playing for efficiency takes the fun out of things.

[CNZCL]

Originally posted by EasternTime:

Originally posted by Fryskar:

@EasternTime
I'm pretty sure you don't get the stats for both weapons, only the one you currently use. So you'd have 30% not 35.

This is false. Half of the breakpoints relies on fact that you get all the special qualities from all of your items equipped. Weapons are not different from a trinket or charm in that regard. I know, it's a bit confusing after playing diablo-like games.

Originally posted by Deja Vu:

Smiter nerfs your cleave, because you don't get stagger bonuses from secondary targets anymore.

This is either bug or untrue. Smiter is not supposed to change anything about how stagger tiers work. Maybe I tested this after it was fixed, because this thread is 16 days old, and there were several patches after that. Will re-test now.

Originally posted by SilverWF:

???
Maybe I've missed something, but there is no such passive anymore

It's actually still there, a hidden passive. Well, maybe not anymore, but there is no way I'm re-doing a full 3k strikes test right now.

I really wish you are right, but.....Weapon properties are only in effect when you are holding that weapon, accessories always affect you. You can use Damage VS to test.