Multi-Account WTH!?

[Voicu]

Am I reading this correctly? Nostale has officially allowed multi-account to be acceptable in the game? The list goes on to see how bad that can turn the economy and player-base.

People with multi-accounts can do the following:

1. Earn gold rapidly via party ts's. With mats and gold given just for completing x3.

2. Take advantage of raids. Idle sub-accounts at the beginning of the raid. Remember you could possibly get 3 raid boxes for one raid when completed with your accounts.

3. Farm IC at lower level for gold to obtain mass amounts of it.
~ 30k per IC x 12 (the amount of times IC comes in the day) = 360k x 3 (accounts) = 1.08m gold per day
That is just sitting everyday in IC and doing nothing.

4. Power level sub-accounts via LoD. I believe its 3 characters to create a family. All you need is one main account to power level and sell off a character to someone.
~Also power level cards in LoD and re-sell them on a mass scale

5. Over saturate market and price control methods can be implemented with mats and raid boxes.

6. Cast any buff wanted from sub-accounts to main account to PvP and get a edge on someone. Where is the fairness in that?

Again, I bring the question how can this bring anything positive to the player-base besides just breaking the game mechanics and its culture. It's sad how this is the normal.

[Senakhtenre]

This has been like this for years, players can also run multiple accounts at the same time, there is no big deal on that matter.

[bemte]

And why exactly is this a bad thing?
If you have such a list, feel free to post it so we can discuss it.
Note also that multis have many benefits, especially on a not so populated server, where it might be hard to find people to give you all the buffs you need, to find a group, etc.

[Voicu]

Originally posted by bemte:

And why exactly is this a bad thing?
If you have such a list, feel free to post it so we can discuss it.
Note also that multis have many benefits, especially on a not so populated server, where it might be hard to find people to give you all the buffs you need, to find a group, etc.

Wow cant believe this is even question on how having multi-accounts doesnt effect anything. Try playing any other MMO with multiple accounts at the same time and see if you get banned. It common sense, but ill indulged you with a list above in the original post. You see I came from the Nostale UK back in 2008 to 2011. Let me tell you this they didnt have that back then because that is considered as a permanent ban.

[76561198112857297]

playing multi-accounts to game the system use to be a bannable offence but back in like 2013 or 2014 it was removed from the rules so anyone could just farm mass amounts to mats/gold with their alts. I still kinda salty about it because the year before they removed that rule my main mage got perma banned for using 2 alts to farm ts 45~55.

[76561198112857297]

Honestly I believe a lot of these changes were results of FC abuse, so people abused the friend mini-land instant teleport to buff or pot and win fights. LoD way back when never had a level limit and you could enter at lvl 1 but that was like 09 or 10?

[Voicu]

Originally posted by theboss964:

Honestly I believe a lot of these changes were results of FC abuse, so people abused the friend mini-land instant teleport to buff or pot and win fights. LoD way back when never had a level limit and you could enter at lvl 1 but that was like 09 or 10?

I understand that it is a little hard to get into LoD now with the level requirement. However, it is still a problem. From level 55 to 99 you can power level still..... thats 44 levels. It is still an issue. But are you for it or against it? All i see in this taking an advantage of the game.

[bemte]

Ok, let's look at your points:
1) You get reward x3, but you also have to pay mats x3 (as it is not shared between participants). Furthermore, you only can actively control one character, so it takes longer. All in all, three guys playing together should be able to make the same (if not more) gold per hour.
2) Yes, but the same applies here. Every sub you take means less damage means longer raids. This point is only valid if raid seals would be really expensive. However, that is only the case for raids people are interested in (mostly high level raids), and here you really need the damage. Furthermore, many raids don't allow you to idle in the boss room (because you have to doge circles, etc.). That is also one reason why the "easier" raids port everyone into the boss room once the first player enters it.
3) And you are online 24/7? An average player can maybe do 3-4 ICs a day, maybe 7-8 if he can go online briefly at work/school. So we are talking about far less gold here. Furthermore, even 1mil is near to nothing if you look at the prices on servers like UK.
4) Selling characters is not only forbidden but will also get you banned. If two accounts are online from the same IP at the same time, they are registered as being the same guy. If these two accounts get online later from different IPs, both get banned for account sharing.
For leveling of cards: That can be done and is also done, but if you are lv90+, you do dmg with every card, so you just wear the card on your main and do dmg with three people instead of one. That levels the cards faster, so here it is better without multis.
5) And why do multis help with that? You need gold, tons of gold, to control the market. See point 1) why you don't really get more raid boxes with lows than without... Apart from that, the boxes you could get (low raids like Cuby etc.) are worth near to nothing once the server is a few months old. The only raids where it counts need every last dmg.
6) Yes, this is a point that is often mentioned. However, leveling the low chars, equipping them with specialists, etc. takes time. A player without multis can use that same time to get better equipment, better specialists, etc. and it is fair again. Furthermore, you can always go with friends. Then you not only have buffs but also active people fighting with you.

The only reasons I see where multis are bad are in FC raids, because these are rather rare (you can't spam them with cheap seals to get the boxes fast) and you can enter with as many people as you want from the same family.
However, the upside of multis is that you can make your own group if you can't find people to do something with you - that is rather important on almost empty servers.
And, as I said above, it takes time to get the multis going. You can invest the same time into a single account and make it just as strong as a fully buffed noob.


PS: I just noticed that the friend miniland teleport is no longer instant - I really like that.
You can, however, still port instantly to the arena, where you can get all the buffs you want from random players - so also no need for multis here.^^

[Voicu]

Originally posted by bemte:

Ok, let's look at your points:
1) You get reward x3, but you also have to pay mats x3 (as it is not shared between participants). Furthermore, you only can actively control one character, so it takes longer. All in all, three guys playing together should be able to make the same (if not more) gold per hour.

Answer: First of all, it takes x3 half moons to do 45-55 party ts. ATM the market price is 9k x 9 which comes out to 81k total just for the moons. Just for completing the party TS you get 40k + 30 gillion stones + 15 high quality mats. Just for one run your looking at 120k gold + 90 gillion stone (750 each) + 45 HQ mats (1.9k each atm) = 273k gold per run. Thats a 192k profit per run. Down play something that is broken because its an inconvenient time wise. NO three "guys" wouldnt make the same because they all trying to get rich too individually, so they dont share their rewards.

Originally posted by bemte:

2) Yes, but the same applies here. Every sub you take means less damage means longer raids. This point is only valid if raid seals would be really expensive. However, that is only the case for raids people are interested in (mostly high level raids), and here you really need the damage. Furthermore, many raids don't allow you to idle in the boss room (because you have to doge circles, etc.). That is also one reason why the "easier" raids port everyone into the boss room once the first player enters it.

Answer: Yes, I understand. However, your forgetting that profit is to be made at lower raids too. For example, Elvin sword's an r6 or r7 can be sold easily close to 1m if not more. To combat the issue with dodge circle all you need is multiple computer screens which is common now in days and a quick reaction time to what is going on. Yes it wont be perfect with no HP lost, but still manageable to live to the end of the boss fight. Again, we all know lvl 99 characters would love to help in raid [insert reason here] and damage isnt really an issue.

Originally posted by bemte:

3) And you are online 24/7? An average player can maybe do 3-4 ICs a day, maybe 7-8 if he can go online briefly at work/school. So we are talking about far less gold here. Furthermore, even 1mil is near to nothing if you look at the prices on servers like UK.

Answer: Why are you comparing to UK? I'm lost. Who knows why 1mil is nothing in their economy.... maybe because the list I made on why its bad for the economy to have access to multiple accounts? .You dont know everyone's schedule. You cant say only 3-4 IC's. It isnt a matter of how many times someone does IC. Its the matter of anyone has access to do all IC's with 3 accounts and get big rewards because of it.

Originally posted by bemte:

4) Selling characters is not only forbidden but will also get you banned. If two accounts are online from the same IP at the same time, they are registered as being the same guy. If these two accounts get online later from different IPs, both get banned for account sharing.
For leveling of cards: That can be done and is also done, but if you are lv90+, you do dmg with every card, so you just wear the card on your main and do dmg with three people instead of one. That levels the cards faster, so here it is better without multis.

Answer: As far as account sharing and IP's. Your right there. I can not argue nor do I think someone will go to that length to get around that issue. But, is possible to get around.... but yes i agree. However, I dont understand what you mean with the cards. I can't make out what your trying to say.

Originally posted by bemte:

5) And why do multis help with that? You need gold, tons of gold, to control the market. See point 1) why you don't really get more raid boxes with lows than without... Apart from that, the boxes you could get (low raids like Cuby etc.) are worth near to nothing once the server is a few months old. The only raids where it counts need every last dmg.

Answer: Again, I dont understand what your trying to say. However, accumulating mass gold and having a marketplace where sellers price their items is important. For instance, lets say I made 5m with all the other methods I mentioned above. What stops me from buying all [insert item here] from the market and reprice them. It a strategy to suck up all the gold as much as i can and control the market. If your confused about it your references can be economics courses (irl), politics (irl), and other mmo online markets.

Originally posted by bemte:

6) Yes, this is a point that is often mentioned. However, leveling the low chars, equipping them with specialists, etc. takes time. A player without multis can use that same time to get better equipment, better specialists, etc. and it is fair again. Furthermore, you can always go with friends. Then you not only have buffs but also active people fighting with you.

Answer: No, doing an "activity" that effects multiple objects at the same time is what cuts down time. It is why people do it in real life situations for everything. What I just explain was the process of multi-tasking. Its a way to do a process quickly. Now Nostale included, I am simply spitting logic here now. However, when applied to Nostale you are cutting down the time to level up to a certain amount due to exp sharing. You cant simply say, if you have more time to focus therefore youll get better equipment, cards, and etc. automatically. Doesn't work like that. Compare it to life. There is too many factors on why someone doesnt have something better and being focused isnt the solution to it.

Lastly, I dont understand why having the difficulties of finding other people to co-operate with you in a set activity is so daunting. Welcome to the world. Not everyone wants to play well with you or even be around in the game. Why should Nostale me the exception. If you think the servers are empty go to ch. 1 more often. With Nostale being on steam and ch. 1 being "Jammed". Why have this still enabled. To prove my point further steam has statistics on Nostale activity. Here. Your welcome.

http://steamcharts.com/app/550470

[bemte]

Ok, then another question: It is allowed, so everyone can do it, so it is just a feature. What is the problem then? The reason that you can make much money is because people (currently) are too lazy or not capable of doing the things you mentioned (just as you mentioned, check any economics course, supply & demand section). It is rather common that there are ways in MMOs to get much gold that are not used by many (e.g. because they are too lazy). In other games it might be annoying quests or grinding, here, multis are one of many options (but so are minigames, farming, grinding, raids, etc.).

Take the current event for example: Everyone wants to do the raids, no one wants to farm. That's why the event snacks sell for 1k and more, even though you can easily drop 10 per minute.

Also, how can something that is available to everyone be bad for the players?

[Voicu]

Originally posted by bemte:

Ok, then another question: It is allowed, so everyone can do it, so it is just a feature. What is the problem then?

The problem is that it breaks the game mechanics. Mass accumulation of a valued item(s).

Originally posted by bemte:

The reason that you can make much money is because people (currently) are too lazy or not capable of doing the things you mentioned (just as you mentioned, check any economics course, supply & demand section). It is rather common that there are ways in MMOs to get much gold that are not used by many (e.g. because they are too lazy). In other games it might be annoying quests or grinding, here, multis are one of many options (but so are minigames, farming, grinding, raids, etc.).

So because I choose not use this "feature". I make a choice to play how the game is intended. I am being lazy. When multi-accounts it such the norm thats the category I am put in........ Because obviously I am going to be at a disadvantage If I play like that.

Originally posted by bemte:

Also, how can something that is available to everyone be bad for the players?

So by that logic any and all drugs usage irl doesnt have negitive effects on the population. My point is your justifications for a common pactice of what is obviously abuses the game mechanics is by far mind bottling. Again, it so normal I understand why you take the position on this subject. Also, why other people use the "feature" because everyone else is doing it, so why not do it too. You desensitize cheating.

[bemte]

It is not cheating as it is allowed...
Nostale is different from other games in many points, one of it is that you don't only have the end game and rush there as fast as possible, there is important content on many levels. Take for example the group TS you mentioned. Assume every player only had a single account. This account would be too high for the TS very soon and thus gillions and dona would be practically non-available to the players.
This would then mean that everyone has to run around in +0 equipment and without ressistances; a fact that would make playing in higher levels practically impossible.

About breaking the game mechanics, I can only once again suggest a basic economics course, subcategory supply and demand, as this is a very important concept in Nostale. You can't accumulate a massive amount of a valuable item, because as soon as you try to sell it, it will no longer be valuable. The prices are entirely made by the players and using multis is only one way of many to get gold. If it would be faster or better than the other ones (e.g. farming, raiding) or if it would suddenly make you so incredibly rich as you clam it would, then more players would do it, the supply would increase and the prices normalize. You might think that the gold from party TS is much, but you overlook two things here:
1) The material has to be bought. If you do too much PTS, you will increase the prizes of stones, moons, etc. until it is no longer profitable to do them.
2) 800k sounds like much, but if you also take into account the time you need to get the characters to the needed level, it is not that much.
For example, fishing lv5 takes about a minute. Taking the current prizes on the US server for the items (mack about 6k, fms about 9k, whales about 15k) and substract from that the current prize of a reward coupon (3k), that would be a profit of almost 40k per minute (of course you also use a production shell; if preparation for PTS, i.e. leveling lows, is allowed, you can also get such a shell).
Add the 5k you get from the owner of the miniland and you are making 45k per minute - compare that to your PTS 45-55 example and see that here, you only get about 10k per minute, maybe 15k if you are lucky and find the energy field fast.

This is only one other way to make gold, there are many others.
They might look really unfair for people not doing it, but the amount of effort, skill and time needed compared to the amount of gold you get are rather similar in all of them. If not, people would start doing the better ones more and everything would normalize again.
To finish with a short example, one might now think that owning minigames is the best way to make profit of all: People who want 45k per minute will all rush to your place and play and you will generate profit without any effort at all.
You can't see the difficulties, the problems in getting players, etc. as long as you don't do it yourself, and it is the exact same thing with multis. It might sound like the best, unfairest idea ever right now, but once you have your accounts set up and are ready to start PTS 45-55, you suddenly hear about TS 73, you see people who didn't level lows but rushed their main accounts farm items that sale for over 1mil, etc.

I can fully understand why you are so against multis, as they are a big problem in many games. But Nostale is different, multis are only one way of many to play it.

[Voicu]

Look thanks for having this discussion with me. I wasnt there when this changed happen. I can see its placed here for good. You have clearly explained your point on the matter and I now have a better understanding. Again, I thank you for your time and effort. If anyone else would like to say anything I am open to hear. If its one side or the other.