Sticky Guardrails

[foofaraw and Chiquita(ARF!)]

Please allow me to add my voice to the concerns about the guardrails.

Both in games and IRL, I've yet to see a guardrail that caused a car to stick to it, causing it to come to a sudden halt, with the back end flipping around.

Generally, the result of contact with a guardrail is to scrape (and slow a bit), bounce off, or slide along (or some combination.) NOT to stick as if it were coated with Automotive Strength Fly Paper.

Please? There are numerous wonky physics issues, but this may be the most egregious as it requires two unrealistic time-killing issues: reversing the car, AND restarting from a speed of zero.

(Next perhaps we can discuss going into uncontrollable spins at less than 10 MPH.)

Thank you for your time and attention, and for a game with tremendous potential.

[Proporo]

Based on what I've heard, the sticky guardrails are a design choice. Implemented to prevent time-attack from becoming all about wall-riding them.

[foofaraw and Chiquita(ARF!)]

Seems an odd choice, given that everyone has the same opportunity. (Surely docking time instead would have dealt with the issue in a much more reasonable and realistic manner? After all, isn't docking time the the ultimate result of the "flypaper trap"?)

I sincerely thank you for your time and generosity. But had I known such violations of reality were deliberately added to spike people's chances to enjoy this game, I doubt you and I (or any other aor player) would have met. There are plenty of fantasy games available on Steam. I didn't expect this to be one of them.

(I've just played Star Drift Evolution to the Top #109 position (so far), and I encountered some amazing features (such as choosing a ghost from ANY player in the LB), and never felt the developers were messing with me out of laziness.)

Thanks again for your kindness.

[Proporo]

It's quite probably not the best way to do it yeah. But the game was mostly created by one guy, and the team is still small, so it was probably just the simple enough choice.

This game has very realistic driving physics for the most part, the effects of weight shifts feels very right and such. On the other hand it's very much simCADE, as in it's not going for serious realism.

A few examples:
-The cars have less gears than in rl
-The cars have lower top speeds than in rl
-The grass has a braking effect to somewhat discourage cutting
-Those guardrails
-stage lengths don't match with speed/time
-There's a slightly lower gravity than rl
-All cars in-game are actually awd, the rwds and fwds are just more front or rear biased
-g2 and gS cars have unrealistically low grip

The list goes on ofc, there's plenty of weirdness, but in my very subjective opinion, it's still easily the best game ever made.

[foofaraw and Chiquita(ARF!)]

Well, in that case I'd best keep playing!

(I might have said the original ZORK, but I'm really old.)

Thank you.

[Litego]

I find the sticky guardrails extremely annoying as well. Love the game, but the guardrails make me rage quit sometimes. Hope they do something about it.

[foofaraw and Chiquita(ARF!)]

Litego,

I think it very unlikely. (And as no doubt you know, it's not just guardrails affected. I was new when I posted that.)

And there are so many other issues that might come before removing the "superglue" problem. I just submitted a new comment to my post about "Inappropriate Resets" where I listed 8 instances where it might easily be wiser to Reset the car than attempt to reposition the car manually. (But that applies mostly to beginners like me, I'd guess.)

When I looked back at my list, then realized that of the dozens of racing games I've played on Steam, NONE of them needed excuses to bypass the normal driving in the game, much less EIGHT (or more). At that point, earlier today, I removed Art of Rally from my PC to eliminate (for now) the temptation to play. I told myself I'd play 100 hours to give aor a fair chance, but I think that might be a bit too stressful for me. I'd love to be proficient, but I fear the investment in time would have diminishing returns, and that's my fault. (NONE of those other dozens of racing games have "superglue" either.)

While we're on the topic of fixing issues, the pinned post about keeping the graphics subdued has been in place for 1.5 YEARS. Also, the longer a session, the longer it takes to exit. Many times it seems that exiting will never take place, so I have to struggle with Task Manager/F4 combinations until it finally closes. Would it eventually exit by itself? Maybe, but but that seems a long time to wait.

Most of this may just be me. After all, the reviews are really good.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

[miketsukami bo.]

Originally posted by foofaraw & Chiquita (Arf!):

While we're on the topic of fixing issues, the pinned post about keeping the graphics subdued has been in place for 1.5 YEARS. Also, the longer a session, the longer it takes to exit. Many times it seems that exiting will never take place, so I have to struggle with Task Manager/F4 combinations until it finally closes. Would it eventually exit by itself? Maybe, but but that seems a long time to wait.

Sorry to hear that you're not enjoying the game! If you're still having technical issues (e.g. quitting) when you decide to give aor another go, I suggest pinging me then and I'll be happy to look into that.

[miketsukami bo.]

As for the sticky guardrails, arcade games do indeed allow you to ride them. But despite it's arcade-y visuals, aor does have quite realistic driving mechanics. To my knowledge you can't really ride the guardrails in real life either. There aren't really many compilations of 80s rally cars riding guardrails, but these most recent ones more or less show how cars usually get pretty wrecked when they get in contact with the guardrails. (Mind you I'm saying 80s, because of the time period aor is set in and that 80s and 90s guardrails were even unsafer than the ones now).

Here's some reference material (no fatal ones from what I saw):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSEsSGpYweA

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8c5kH45SzYU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UB5uDkA3Szs

[Litego]

I've tried running into a guardrail IRL myself twice actually, as a driver and passenger. When I did it as a driver I had to drive home at speeds below 30 km/h because I hit the pole with the wheel as I was turning it and ended up bending some bars in the steering, so the car was randomly turning left and right. When I was a passenger the "rail" was of the old cement block type, the car just bounced off the "rail" and landed in the road again, no damage to the car or "rail". I did see an accident this summer where the car had gone underneath the railing, but I think that guy hit pretty straight on, luckily for him the car had stopped halfway through, as there was a steep cliff on the other side.

Anyways, both times I crashed, the front of the car would bounce back into the road, not stick to it and throw the rear out. Much like in the first and third clip you linked (third one could have potentially continued driving had it not been for being stuck on the cliff edge). In the second clip the car is low enough to go under the rail, which will obviously have that effect.

So obviously they can do a lot of damage to your car IRL, but the game is not that realistic anyways, if it was you wouldn't be able to drive away from a head on collision with a tree either. The current mechanic is not fun, in most cases it's not realistic either, and there are better solutions to this problem.

[foofaraw and Chiquita(ARF!)]

Litego, speaking as someone with a wrecked left hand/wrist from skateboarding in the 70s, and a ruined spine from other causes (including scoliosis), please be careful. I never sleep a full night, or experience even a moment w/o pain. Being 100% permanently disabled isn't nearly as much fun as it sounds. (And does not pay well.)
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Continuing the discussion topic more specifically...
If all, or even a good percentage of driving games did what aor does (i.e.-sticky guardrails), I'd have little choice but to be accepting. In fact, I can't imagine any of this attention being brought to the issue. (Or it even being an issue.)
But I know of none that do, so clearly there are other choices. Choices that may not detract from the fun of the game. (And I've been PC gaming for > 35 years.)

In fact, there are numerous times in which aor uniquely necessitates such a step back from the "pseudo-reality" of the typical driving/racing game. Here's a list of instances (in my experience, and likely as an aor beginner) where it's potentially advantageous to the "score" of aor (and aor alone) to break out of the game; in these cases, involving deliberately "resetting" the car rather than waiting or manually returning the car to normal movement:

If there is a sharp turn at the end of a long straight-a-way, it's certainly to my advantage to max the gas, then reset the instant I leave the road at a higher speed than would ever make the turn. No slowing, or spending time maneuvering the turn. After all, the post-reset placement is (usually) ideal! (The five second penalty can seem like a gift!)

Other times it MAY be advantageous to reset as soon as possible:
1) when the car is fishtailing badly
2) when the car is turned around (as resulting from contact with "superglue" guardrails, etc.)
3) when the car is flipping endlessly (which can happen at less than 20 mph (often as slow as 10 mph)), so is unpredictable as to length of time involved. Usually after hitting a bump that may not even be noticeable due to pov.
4) When the car is front-end against an object (perhaps the least advantageous example on the list.)
5) When I'm off the road, and the car is uncontrollably heading away from the road.
6) The rare instances when the car seems determined NOT get back on the road. (Since it's almost certainly going to reset anyway, why lose time? While the risk of a double reset exists, it's too rare to be considered.)
7) when the car has come in contact with a roadside bank (due to unpredictability and lack of control.)

Thank you for your time and interest. My intention is only to be helpful. As it were, observant rather than critical.

[miketsukami bo.]

Originally posted by Litego:

So obviously they can do a lot of damage to your car IRL, but the game is not that realistic anyways, if it was you wouldn't be able to drive away from a head on collision with a tree either. The current mechanic is not fun, in most cases it's not realistic either, and there are better solutions to this problem.

It's probably not ideal right now, but wallriding the guardrails is not fun either (at least not in sim-like games). What do you suggest would be a better way to interact with the guardrails?

[miketsukami bo.]

Thank you for the feedback, foofaraw & Chiquita (Arf!)! I'm finding it a bit hard to understand, though. In my first 100 hours of playing art of rally the amount of times I though it would've been better to restart is probably less than 10.

Could you perhaps list some recent racing games with sophisticated driving mechanics that you have enjoyed? I'm rather curious which titles have influenced your expectations towards art of rally.

[foofaraw and Chiquita(ARF!)]

My intention with the above post was to emphasize that it sometimes MAY be more effective to reset, and likely only because I'm a beginner. (And a severely dinged-up one at that. Respectfully, I'm not sure you would ever have been considered a beginner in the same category as someone who first encountered aor as a finished product. If I misjudge your experience I hope you'll accept my apology.) When I utilized this strategy I turned in better results without fail. That's not to say anyone else would have the same experience, but it might be worth considering on an individual basis.

Thank you for your interest. If I can help in any way, I’m very willing to try, though I’m just one broken old man. Every game on this list, unless new or otherwise noted, was at one time my Steam go-to driving / racing game:
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Recently, Star Drift Evolution - Perhaps #1 in the list as far as just pure fun, and competing with friends. (I bought 6 copies for friends, three at full price. I enjoy it that much.)

Perhaps second, Mantis Burn (also entirely top down.) Another game I refunded, then returned to and LOVED!

GRIP, which I’ve played since before it had a career mode. Fun from the first moment! Another one I have given to several friends as a gift.

Redout: Enhanced Edition – Many hours in, but not a game I return to, and I have not played recently. VAST content, but so much of it is very difficult. (Anti-gravity racing, so not the same category exactly.) I include it because I put so much time into it, and enjoyed it very much at one time.

Dirt Rally – hundreds of hours, but I always tried playing with manual transmission, and I’m going to retry w/o and see if I progress further and enjoy it more. (Left hand / wrist / arm being a greater issue now.)

Wreckfest, which I owned since it was dreadful. I think I played it TOO much…

BeamNG.Drive – possibly the most varied content of any driving game in this list. Nothing but class.

DiRT 5 – very nice game, but it came at a (recent) time when it was pushed aside by SDE, then aor and DiRT 4. Hopefully I’ll give it more time soon.

Currently I'm playing DiRT 4. While just starting, I'm progressing well enough to see the possibilities, and I hope / expect to put in MANY hours.

Started just this morning with Super Woden GP, but too early to judge. I think it will be a keeper! (More arcade-based than the rest of this list.)
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Please keep in mind that my reported time for most of these games (Mantis Burn through BeamNG.Drive) isn’t accurate. For much of this period I was living w/o internet in my home, so time wasn’t tracked. Of course, there are dozens of other games that didn’t stand out, but may be great games in their own right.

Again, thank you for your time and interest, and best of success with art of rally.

[foofaraw and Chiquita(ARF!)]

Also the Trackmania series.

LOVED them all, but for some reason my profile is no longer recognized, and I have too many other great driving / racing games to spend time trying to resolve the issue.

Should you post any further communications, please feel free to shorten my rather lengthy ID to just "foofaraw", or even "foo", if you wish. Chiquita shouldn't mind. (Shelter pups tend to be very accommodating.)

[miketsukami bo.]

Originally posted by foofaraw & Chiquita (Arf!):

Thank you for your interest. If I can help in any way, I’m very willing to try, though I’m just one broken old man. Every game on this list, except new or otherwise noted, was at one time my Steam go-to driving / racing game.

My intention with the above post was to emphasize that it sometimes MAY be more effective to reset, and likely only because I'm a beginner. (And a severely dinged-up one at that. Respectfully, I'm not sure you would ever have been considered a beginner in the same category as someone who first encountered aor as a finished product. If I misjudge your experience I hope you'll accept my apology.) When I utilized this strategy I turned in better results without fail. That's not to say anyone else would have the same experience, but it might be worth considering on an individual basis.
-------------------------------------------------------
Recently, Star Drift Evolution - Perhaps #1 in the list as far as just pure fun, and competing with friends. (I bought 6 copies for friends, three at full price. I enjoy it that much.)

Perhaps second, Mantis Burn (also entirely top down.) Another I refunded, then returned to and LOVED!

GRIP, which I’ve played since before it had a career mode. Fun from the first moment!!!

Redout: Enhanced Edition – Many hours in, but not the game I return to, and I have not played recently. VAST content, but so much of it is very difficult. (Anti-gravity racing, so not the same category exactly.) I include it because I put so much time into it, and enjoyed it very much at one time.

Dirt Rally – hundreds of hours, but I always tried playing with manual transmission, and I’m going to retry w/o and see if I progress further and enjoy it more. (Left hand being a greater issue now.)

Wreckfest, which I owned since it was dreadful. I think I played it TOO much…

BeamNG.Drive – possibly the most varied content of any driving game in this list. Nothing but class.

DiRT 5 – very nice game, but it came at a (recent) time when it was pushed aside by SDE, then aor and DiRT 4. Hopefully I’ll give it more time soon.

Currently I'm playing DiRT 4. While just starting, I'm progressing well enough to see the possibilities, and I hope / expect to put in MANY hours.

Started just this morning with Super Woden GP, but too early to judge. I think it will be a keeper! (More arcade-based than the rest of this list.)
-------------------------------------------------
Please keep in mind that my time for most of these games (Mantis Burn through BeamNG.Drive) isn’t accurate. For much of this period I was living w/o internet in my home, so time wasn’t tracked. Of course, there are dozens of other games that didn’t stand out, but may be great games in their own right.

Again, thank you for your time and interest, and best of success with art of rally.

Quoting the post more as a note to myself for the future rather than anything else.

I encountered aor for the first time about a year ago as part of the community and it was a finished product. At the time I dreaded moving from CMR and NFS to Dirt and more sim-like games, because I didn't have a good experience trying out Grid back in the day and driving in sims like Live for Speed was beyond me. I thought aor was just about right - more complex than NFS and games where cars basically drive themselves, but less complex than full-fledged sims which required a lot of dedication. And compared to the Dirt series I could approach it casually. So I thought I'd give it a go. And ultimately learning to drive in an elegant manner in aor improved my driving in all those other games as well. This and the fact that I use keyboard for most games is probably making my experience quite unique, though.

Maybe it's finally time for me to properly try Dirt 4 and Rally (which I have) and see how they compare to art of rally, now that I'm used to more sophisticated handling. I'm also eyeballing BeamNG, which I expect to be quite realistic, but I'll probably get it at a later point in time. Hopefully I could whip up some useful feedback for the team from my observations there.

And speaking of feedback, all feedback is important and much appreciated by the devs. So don't sell yourself short! And in this case, for me personally it's quite interesting to see how the experiences you have in art of rally connect with the expectations that you've built up from playing other games in the past. But yeah... It's all helpful in the long run, so thanks for that!