"VNN got me kicked out of TLS dev team..." Talk w Nightly/Archangel about The Last Stand update disaster.

[וווBatty]

[PROOF] FULL CONVERSATION HERE: https://imgur.com/a/NDxPyJQ
I highly suggest reading the whole thing.

Disappointed and attempting to find out what really had happened in development, regarding the broken update we received, I reached out to Archangel (aka Nightly), an ex-dev of TLS team and a well-known modder and custom mapper in the workshop community.

This is what he had to say on the matter, working under the supervision of Rayman1103 and JAiZ from Left4DeadNation:

"I was in charge mostly of the navigation bug fixing and improvement on survival maps. Sometimes, I worked several days in a row tackling down everything that needed improving. Rayman was always busy with something not project related, we never new what, exactly, so JAiZ, who handled Scavenging, Survival and PR for the team, took over the role of director of the project, and his demands were ludicrous."

"I felt early on that the update was gonna have issues.
From the start I had feelings that it wasn't gonna go down well.
I was told by JAiZ that this was a TOP SECRET project and that I wasn't allowed to share the details with anyone."

He goes on about the early days of the project:

"It lasted for about 11 months... It started small in the beginning, with a group of less than 10 people. We were tackling too many things by the end, even when we had around 25 people by that point. The Last Stand map wasn't even a thing until about half way through development. Not only that, but we didn't know what the other guys in the team were working on. I got kicked a short while after, because they thought I was gonna leak info on the update"

Afterwards, he shared how hard it was while working under JAiZ's direction.

"Everything felt disconnected, like we were working towards an invisible goal, and we couldn't plan ahead. It was very stressful... and we weren't allowed to talk to anyone about it, which is odd because we NEVER signed a Non-disclosure agreement, or were getting paid for working on the update. This was a work of love and passion by the community, so I was okay with it. I only could playtest once a week on Survival maps, for about 30 min... that's very little testing being done for a project this size."

"...None of us knew what the other guys in the team were actually doing. A lot of people don't understand, everything I would fix would be undone by the other guy's changes, due to a lack of communication... one step forward and two steps back. Organization was a mess, we lacked direction, a deadline and a clear goal."

"I told my friends about the update and how development was like and they all said that it sounded like HELL, and they suggested I try talk to VNN to shine light on those issues.
Before I got booted I actually lost access to most the Update Discord due to my role being removed. Hence why I tried to contact (Valve News Network), with no intent about leaking content rather just development, because I felt like I wasn't gonna be credited in any way. But Tyler McVicker [from VNN] sold me out as I tried to contact HIM specfically."

Nightly says he got kicked out of the dev team a month before release.
Most of the work he did on the project ended up being removed, while very little of the bugs he had fixed and shared with his teammates go uncredited.

He also shares how disappointed he is on the final product.

"The fact we couldn't even talk to people about it and see what they thought hurt us honestly. You can't get critcism if you never show your work, you can't improve on it."

When asked about the disregard for other Players and Gametypes, he said"

"JAiZ gave no ♥♥♥♥♥ for VS play. Unless you play Scavenge or Survival, it's kind of a [crappy] update, tbh. And playing it now, it's all still very broken, even moreso than before."

He remarks:

"It's literally what THE TEAM wanted, not what THE COMMUNITY wanted. JAiZ nor Rayman sought any feedback from actual everyday players, under a basis that it was all secret, but none of us were under a contract."

"When it came to what could have been handled better? Maybe not just toss [stuff] into Google Drive Documents that I had trouble even going through.
I wish I was joking but I'm not. All the [stuff] when I joined was in Google Docs, inside a normal text document, not spread sheets or anything. It made everything very diffcult at first, and it got worse as more stuff was added to the list."

"I love Left 4 Dead, It was my childhood... and it hurts me to see what happened, I played L4D1 and 2 since release [...] I was still very young when they came out. So L4D has been a big deal in my life.

I hate to say it, but the update kinda made the game dead for me..."

------
UPDATE:
Oh another thing I wanna point out, with my first chat with Batty I wasn't entirely professional, that was just me expression my own feelings all out. I didn't expect this much attention and I wanna keep it professional. -Archangel

UPDATE #2
JAiZ and his team have been confronted publicly @L4DNation discord.
After evading the issue and even resorting to blaming Kerry from Valve breaking their version of the game, they ended the thread and blocked our communication. I will upload the conversation ASAP.
JAiZ stated that he needs rest from fixing all the bugs and will give a PSA when the time is right, so we can all hear his side of the story.\

UPDATE #3
(this is now halted as many l4dnation supporters have been harassing me and threatening on the subject of "doctoring the evidence", so everyone interested can join the discord and witness what happened for youselves. I am unwilling bust my ass presenting evidence for people who I don't care for.)

UPDATE #4
I, too, want to say, I have respect for the modding talent of each of the individuals in the team, not for the dev team itself. The team and update should never have been given that chance to mess with the game this deeply, especially without consulting rest of the community at any point.
They are inexperienced leaders and inexperienced group workers at this scale. This is not acceptable for a project this big.

UPDATE #5

Interesting conversation detailing more of JAiZ's "healthy and loving care for the community":

https://imgur.com/a/hdZEDkD

I will keep pushing for a ROLLBACK and a PUBLIC BETA BRANCH. I don't speak for Archangel's thoughts on the matter.

[TM Clerical]

Originally posted by Forsaken:

A friend just pointed out that the drama we're experiencing over the L4D2 community update has probably had an adverse affect on TF2, as Valve said they would do no more TF2 community updates beforehand, and the Last Stand update could have turned that around. probably not now that the issues are coming to light, development hell, back lash, bugs and crashes, etc.

honestly it's always on the table, valve flop around like a fish when comes to this subject. this update isn't even the most drama ridden for left for dead 2, even the launch of l4d2 was more messy for different reasons XD

[shoes]

Originally posted by Batty:

Originally posted by shoes:

Bruh. I'm agreeing with you. You don't need to try to turn this into a debate.

On another topic there are three ways this can go. (Most likely to least likely to my cynical perspective.)
1. This is ignored 85%.
2. This gets censored and the dev flips out (refer to a certain anime school murder simulator developer as an example) 10%.
3. The devs respond in a manner which clears everything up and might even show Nightly/Archangel as a not so good person 5%.

Agreed.
I'm not saying Archangel is a saint, obviously he admitted to having his faults when he touched on life getting in the way of the project... and certainly there's more stuff to say about this whole situation.
I'm hoping this will force someone's hand (hopefully JAiZ) for them to give us their side of the story, because they've evaded the issue long enough.

I don't think they will if this is just something on the Steam forums. If this gets popular on the L4D2 Reddit (depending on who the mods are over there) or YouTube I think there might be a chance. Otherwise they can safely ignore this (or delete this when it becomes "problematic").

[TM Clerical]

Originally posted by shoes:

Originally posted by Batty:

Agreed.
I'm not saying Archangel is a saint, obviously he admitted to having his faults when he touched on life getting in the way of the project... and certainly there's more stuff to say about this whole situation.
I'm hoping this will force someone's hand (hopefully JAiZ) for them to give us their side of the story, because they've evaded the issue long enough.

I don't think they will if this is just something on the Steam forums. If this gets popular on the L4D2 Reddit (depending on who the mods are over there) or YouTube I think there might be a chance. Otherwise they can safely ignore this (or delete this when it becomes "problematic").

youtube always the best bet

[76561198310744023]

Originally posted by shoes:

Originally posted by Batty:

Agreed.
I'm not saying Archangel is a saint, obviously he admitted to having his faults when he touched on life getting in the way of the project... and certainly there's more stuff to say about this whole situation.
I'm hoping this will force someone's hand (hopefully JAiZ) for them to give us their side of the story, because they've evaded the issue long enough.

I don't think they will if this is just something on the Steam forums. If this gets popular on the L4D2 Reddit (depending on who the mods are over there) or YouTube I think there might be a chance. Otherwise they can safely ignore this (or delete this when it becomes "problematic").

Agree with you, one of the people in the dev team is a mod here aswell

[וווBatty]

Originally posted by shoes:

Originally posted by Batty:

Agreed.
I'm not saying Archangel is a saint, obviously he admitted to having his faults when he touched on life getting in the way of the project... and certainly there's more stuff to say about this whole situation.
I'm hoping this will force someone's hand (hopefully JAiZ) for them to give us their side of the story, because they've evaded the issue long enough.

I don't think they will if this is just something on the Steam forums. If this gets popular on the L4D2 Reddit (depending on who the mods are over there) or YouTube I think there might be a chance. Otherwise they can safely ignore this (or delete this when it becomes "problematic").

I have backed things up, but honestly, this whole situation has started to take a toll on me as well. I’ve never done stuff like this before, but it’s been worth it because I really love the game. Not sure if I can keep it up though. I’d love to do a YouTube video, but truth is Archangel seems depressed and unmotivated right now, and I wish he would showcase his work publicly. I’ve seen some of it and it is wonderful, but I sense he’s lacking confidence after reaching out to Tyler and being ratted out... and I lack the support on reddit and youtube, as I mainly work as a musician and in publicity, not a social media content creator.

[Z2J]

What's the deal with VNN and this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥? Honestly this is ♥♥♥♥♥♥ how bad this is behind the scenes. No wonder the update ended up being a mess.

[Mrpoke]

Originally posted by Batty:

Originally posted by shoes:

I don't think they will if this is just something on the Steam forums. If this gets popular on the L4D2 Reddit (depending on who the mods are over there) or YouTube I think there might be a chance. Otherwise they can safely ignore this (or delete this when it becomes "problematic").

I have backed things up, but honestly, this whole situation has started to take a toll on me as well. I’ve never done stuff like this before, but it’s been worth it because I really love the game. Not sure if I can keep it up though. I’d love to do a YouTube video, but truth is Archangel seems depressed and unmotivated right now, and I wish he would showcase his work... and I lack the support on reddit and youtube, as I mainly work as a musician and in publicity, not a social media content creator.

Maybe try to get in touch with WowSuchGaming? He's the only L4D2 youtuber who isn't a speedrunner. Idk though, he may be a person who praises the update, doesn't hurt to try though.

[AppsolusZero]

Originally posted by Batty:

Originally posted by shoes:

I don't think they will if this is just something on the Steam forums. If this gets popular on the L4D2 Reddit (depending on who the mods are over there) or YouTube I think there might be a chance. Otherwise they can safely ignore this (or delete this when it becomes "problematic").

I have backed things up, but honestly, this whole situation has started to take a toll on me as well. I’ve never done stuff like this before, but it’s been worth it because I really love the game. Not sure if I can keep it up though. I’d love to do a YouTube video, but truth is Archangel seems depressed and unmotivated right now, and I wish he would showcase his work... and I lack the support on reddit and youtube, as I mainly work as a musician and in publicity, not a social media content creator.

Hey man, just shining the light on this topic is enough, really. Thank you. Don't try to do things bigger than you are capable of. You will end up just like this update.

[shoes]

Originally posted by Batty:

Originally posted by shoes:

I don't think they will if this is just something on the Steam forums. If this gets popular on the L4D2 Reddit (depending on who the mods are over there) or YouTube I think there might be a chance. Otherwise they can safely ignore this (or delete this when it becomes "problematic").

I have backed things up, but honestly, this whole situation has started to take a toll on me as well. I’ve never done stuff like this before, but it’s been worth it because I really love the game. Not sure if I can keep it up though. I’d love to do a YouTube video, but truth is Archangel seems depressed and unmotivated right now, and I wish he would showcase his work... and I lack the support on reddit and youtube, as I mainly work as a musician and in publicity, not a social media content creator.

Getting this popular is the biggest problem. In addition to that most of the big content creators seem to be supportive of the update so they will have less of a chance of thinking this as true. How to get this popular is something I think we should leave to minds greater than ours in the area of social engineering (if this thread attracts those kinds of people).
EDIT: You got this far. You did more than you needed to. Great job bringing this to light.

[וווBatty]

Originally posted by Mrpoke:

Originally posted by Batty:

I have backed things up, but honestly, this whole situation has started to take a toll on me as well. I’ve never done stuff like this before, but it’s been worth it because I really love the game. Not sure if I can keep it up though. I’d love to do a YouTube video, but truth is Archangel seems depressed and unmotivated right now, and I wish he would showcase his work... and I lack the support on reddit and youtube, as I mainly work as a musician and in publicity, not a social media content creator.

Maybe try to get in touch with WowSuchGaming? He's the only L4D2 youtuber who isn't a speedrunner. Idk though, he may be a person who praises the update, doesn't hurt to try though.

We’ve tried contacting him, but still haven’t had a response. Hopefully, though.

[TM Clerical]

Originally posted by Mrpoke:

Originally posted by Batty:

I have backed things up, but honestly, this whole situation has started to take a toll on me as well. I’ve never done stuff like this before, but it’s been worth it because I really love the game. Not sure if I can keep it up though. I’d love to do a YouTube video, but truth is Archangel seems depressed and unmotivated right now, and I wish he would showcase his work... and I lack the support on reddit and youtube, as I mainly work as a musician and in publicity, not a social media content creator.

Maybe try to get in touch with WowSuchGaming? He's the only L4D2 youtuber who isn't a speedrunner. Idk though, he may be a person who praises the update, doesn't hurt to try though.

just because they praise the update (he likes most of it but says it has issues) does not mean they won't take a interest, i dislike the picking sides.

he seems reasonable and has done videos on previous left for dead drama
example being
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUc9QvYq0pE

[Z2J]

https://twitter.com/Wow_Such_Gaming is his Twitter. Tweet at him with this discussion/images of it as much as you can

[shoes]

Originally posted by Z2J:

https://twitter.com/Wow_Such_Gaming is his Twitter. Tweet at him with this discussion/images of it as much as you can

I recommend everyone reading to do this. Don't act dumb when doing it.

[Tariff Mike Hawk]

Interesting read. Wow, original release was back in May.

Devs need to shine some light on this.

[TM Clerical]

Originally posted by shoes:

Originally posted by Z2J:

https://twitter.com/Wow_Such_Gaming is his Twitter. Tweet at him with this discussion/images of it as much as you can

I recommend everyone reading to do this.

Depends on clicks, TLS content has alot of views right now, but honestly it's not much of a story as far as a video goes.

As i've said this happens to most games that see 'development hell',I'm hoping to see more sides of it.