Starting to suspect ai bias

[Major Ace]

I just had a enemy 28cm german gun destroy a whole platoon of valentine tanks. And the whole thing is very suspicious. My valentine tanks were position in such a way that they have cover of terrain and only the thickest parts of it were visible, but yet still the 28cm that was atleast 400 meters away was able to destroy each single tank in 1-2 shots with perfect accuracy. Meanwhile my valentine tanks hit the gun and crew atleast 10 times (with 3 of them hitting the gun crew directly), I also had infantry mortars firing at them and yet they still continued to operate the gun with the crew only receiving minor wounds. Keep in mind they were in the middle of a open plain, so no cover for the gun. This feels like such a huge ai bias, as I've used the guns before and they aren't that effective. And yet the ai can probably destroy mathildas with it at this point.

[Major Ace]

I had every advantage agaisnt that at gun as even some infantry was firing at it from afar, but yet the gun crew lost a single soldier somehow.

[archibaldthe1]

I was curious - ran a platoon of MK3s (5) over an open field against a platoon of 2.8 sPzBs (3). The armor pen diagram shows that these heavy ATR cannot penetrate the thickest part of Valentine's armor (and they do not), but hit into weak spots (and they are capable of very rapid fire) do impact. One caused fire by a frontal hit that got to the engine.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3475768017

On the other hand, the ATR crews were decimated (1/6, 1/6 and 5/2). Which is all done by Besa MG and 2-inch mortar (the main gun has no HE and almost useless in this situation).

I did not get so lucky in the opposite situation, but generally, the damage on tanks tends to be similar (weak spots)

The bias we obverse is likely the "negativity bias" :)

[Major Ace]

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

I was curious - ran a platoon of MK3s (5) over an open field against a platoon of 2.8 sPzBs (3). The armor pen diagram shows that these heavy ATR cannot penetrate the thickest part of Valentine's armor (and they do not), but hit into weak spots (and they are capable of very rapid fire) do impact. One caused fire by a frontal hit that got to the engine.
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=3475768017

On the other hand, the ATR crews were decimated (1/6, 1/6 and 5/2). Which is all done by Besa MG and 2-inch mortar (the main gun has no HE and almost useless in this situation).

I did not get so lucky in the opposite situation, but generally, the damage on tanks tends to be similar (weak spots)

The bias we obverse is likely the "negativity bias" :)

Most bullets holes that showed ''penetration'' were near the drivers sight strangely enough, seemed to be where most penetrated through. Also a bunch of the valentines were angled which should have make even the weaker spots very hard to hit. What I find very odd is that at gun only needed like 3-4 hits to kill the entire crew. One thing to note is that none of my vehicles burned or exploded, what happened is that the crew got killed by the shells.

Also about the gun, while yes the 2 pounder got no HE, it doesn't really change the fact that I saw several shells hit the crew directly or penetrate the breech/rotating mechanism area on the at gun. 40mm is still quite heavy, you are not surviving long getting hit with one directly, especially while also underfire from mgs..

[archibaldthe1]

If you observed strange damage I’d post screenshots. There is about zero chance developer will look at it anytime soon though (they’ve been a more than little preoccupied since the attacks on Kharkiv intensified a year ago), but perhaps other player could chime in.

Modifications of equipment favoring or disfavoring player/game-controlled troops is pretty much out of the question - the possibility that the developers decided to screw players over in a very specific way by “buffing” 2.8cm heavy ATRs is somewhat remote, don’t you think? :)

There is a threshold of some sort when troop take aimed shots vs aiming for the center of mass (depends on the distance, weapon’s capabilities and state of the crew). That particular mechanism may need tuning if a crew under heavy fire from MGs and 50mm mortars still demonstrates unmatched sharpshooting skills. But again, that’s a general problem, not enabled/disabled based on who controls the troops.

[Major Ace]

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

If you observed strange damage I’d post screenshots. There is about zero chance developer will look at it anytime soon though (they’ve been a more than little preoccupied since the attacks on Kharkiv intensified a year ago), but perhaps other player could chime in.

That's fair, Mius front is their priority anyways.

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

Modifications of equipment favoring or disfavoring player/game-controlled troops is pretty much out of the question - the possibility that the developers decided to screw players over in a very specific way by “buffing” 2.8cm heavy ATRs is somewhat remote, don’t you think? :)

Very specific moments like above makes me think that it might be a possibility, I have already been screwed over by steel division 2 ai enough so I got a feeling for it. And this feels very suspicious considering ttheir able to hit a weakpoint that is also angled over and over. Could also been a bug or glitch that screwed some calculations or something.

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

There is a threshold of some sort when troop take aimed shots vs aiming for the center of mass (depends on the distance, weapon’s capabilities and state of the crew). That particular mechanism may need tuning if a crew under heavy fire from MGs and 50mm mortars still demonstrates unmatched sharpshooting skills. But again, that’s a general problem, not enabled/disabled based on who controls the troops.

Another thing I did not mention is later on I restarted mission to try a better approach and when my Valentine tank peeked just slightly, the at gun instantly turned 180 degrees and one shot it. Could this be act with caution + some weird calculation bug?.

[archibaldthe1]

There is always a possibility of faulty game mechanics or damage/pen bugs. As I said, the ability of gunners to exhibit unrivaled marksmanship while under heavy fire probably could do with tuning, The entire gunnery systems does tbh - the devs started it with introducing some rudimentary error in how troops perceive the distance, but it only applies to heavy weapons (mortars, cannons) and it is well, rudimentary.

It’s just we (as humans) tend to notice things that are perceived as unfair to us much more so than the other way around.

[Major Ace]

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

There is always a possibility of faulty game mechanics or damage/pen bugs. As I said, the ability of gunners to exhibit unrivaled marksmanship while under heavy fire probably could do with tuning, The entire gunnery systems does tbh - the devs started it with introducing some rudimentary error in how troops perceive the distance, but it only applies to heavy weapons (mortars, cannons) and it is well, rudimentary.

It’s just we (as humans) tend to notice things that are perceived as unfair to us much more so than the other way around.

Fair point, wish it was possible to abort attacks when I reload campaigns if I encounter something similar.

[Zap Rowsdower]

I finally got around to playing TW:T coming from Mius front and I do notice something off. I couldn't say what concretely but it definitely feels as if units are able to continue under fire in a way they don't in Mius Front.

I don't know their name, there's a US halftrack with a gun on top. It was hit 7 times (I counted) by Panzer 4s, wrecking the engine, killing the driver, wounding the gun crew. It continued to fire taking a further 5 shells to finally "die". This was a somewhat routine experience and I find the same playing as the Allies.

This also works both ways. Had a PZ4 lose 3 of it's 5 crew. It continued to fire knocking out a sherman as if nothing had happened.

In Mius front it feels as if a unit like that taking that level of punishment, the crew panics and bails out far quicker than in TW:T.

It's not the end of the world, but I do notice a subtle difference in gunner accuracy and crew morale.

[moyer4487]

I have noticed similar after playing Mius Front for a while then coming back to this game. Something is very different than Mius Front thats for sure. I noticed that supression of gun crews is impossible and requiring several direct hits from a Pz4 with the long barrel gun before it was killed. about 5 hits if I remember correctly. It did not take 5 hits to knock out any tank I had. Almost every one was one shot or a two shot

[archibaldthe1]

There are stories/discussions in MF forum of last surviving crewman operating an AVF refusing to run. So this is not a phenomenon limited to the Tank Warfare. A good way to test is to pick an editor battle with similar tanks/similar morale, experience parameters and run 10+ experiments.
Suppression is tied to “level of fire” indicator. Again, a thorough test would be a way to accept/reject a hypothesis that it is different in two games. But given that neither game was updated in a long time, I would expect that to be a waste of time.