LOS Problem

[Not Athryan]

I'm new to Graviteam war games, purchased TW Tunisia just a few days ago. The game has limited command system, which is great, as it enforces me to give general orders and watch the battle instead of constant micro managing.

At least, that's what I thought until I got ambush tutorial. My experience was horrible. The game told me to bring my ATs into the trees to do an ambush. Using "take defense" command as instructed made all my AT misaligned off the road. The rest that had correct alignment failed to see the tanks because apparently TREES WERE IN THE WAY, while the enemy tanks could target my ATs no problemo.

I retried this tutorial several times already. Going as tutorial instructed always made me lose. Then I hide my ATs instead and enable fire after the tanks were close enough. Guess what? Same LOS problem, enemy tanks could shoot my ATs while I couldn't shoot back. Also, any attempt to micromanage and bring my ATs out from the woods resulted in failure because they kept stopping for whatever reason.

There was one single time I was able to make all my ATs shot the tanks. The result? Very bad. My ATs managed to disabled only 1 single tank, while the rest of their friends grinded mine to dust.

What the heck should I actually do?? The more I play this game, the more I'm fighting with the controls instead of focusing on the situation of the battle.

[archibaldthe1]

In this (or any other tutorial for Graviteam games), following instructions does not necessarily lead to winning the engagement. The goal is just to show certain type of engagements, which unfortunately the game does not make clear. So you are free to experiment and ignore instructions.
“Take defense “ order gives units some discretion as to where they end up. For AFVs, it’s not great unless you want them to re-enter dugouts.

Here is a guide for new players - it may help in getting initial “shell shock”. Although, it won’t help with figuring out where good ambush positions are :)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2878445773

[Battleshipfree99]

Heavy weapons in GTMF/TWT must be micromanaged (or they could always be in wrong positions without LOF). Never use "take defense" on heavy weapon units.

The problem that your M3 GMC can't fire back but taking hits is due to trajectories, or LOF (line of fire). Gentle reverse slopes could sometimes block own LOF but be exposed to enemy fire. XD

GTMF/TWT doesn't give enough concealment bonus to vehicles hidden in foliage. Just forget about close range ambush if you are not dugged in. Those PzIIIs could see your M3 GMCs from 2km away when you are maneuvering towards that high ground. lol


Ambush tutorial is kind of difficult as the US tanks and SPGs (in 1943) has inferior sights (except for M10).
Particularly for M3 GMC, it has inferior gunner sight (1x), inferior penetration (55mm/30° @ 500m) and inferior effect (very few M61 APCBC with HE filler were available in early 1943, so most were black tipped solid M61).

Two possible approaches:
1. Line up on that damn high ground, stay exposed, and shoot at max range.
The fire adjustment algorithm was once buffed for M3 GMC, so if they open fire at max AT range (900m~1km), they would get the correct range earlier than the enemy PzIII. Win the firefight with rate of fire and accuracy.
With some luck all 5 PzIII could be knocked out before your M3 GMCs run out of ammo (uncheck fire at infantry to save AP ammo and be more efficient against tanks).

2. After the sight quality update & before the buff mentioned above, the effective range of M3 GMC used to be only 200m ... Darkest hour for US in TWT. lol
Find a reverse slope, ambush from point blank range, was the only way out (at that time). Remember to use the .50 scout jeep to harass and cut off German infantry from those tanks. M3 GMC won't stand a chance against infantry MG34/42.

[Not Athryan]

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

In this (or any other tutorial for Graviteam games), following instructions does not necessarily lead to winning the engagement. The goal is just to show certain type of engagements, which unfortunately the game does not make clear. So you are free to experiment and ignore instructions.
“Take defense “ order gives units some discretion as to where they end up. For AFVs, it’s not great unless you want them to re-enter dugouts.

Here is a guide for new players - it may help in getting initial “shell shock”. Although, it won’t help with figuring out where good ambush positions are :)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2878445773

Originally posted by Battleshipfree99:

Heavy weapons in GTMF/TWT must be micromanaged (or they could always be in wrong positions without LOF). Never use "take defense" on heavy weapon units.

The problem that your M3 GMC can't fire back but taking hits is due to trajectories, or LOF (line of fire). Gentle reverse slopes could sometimes block own LOF but be exposed to enemy fire. XD

GTMF/TWT doesn't give enough concealment bonus to vehicles hidden in foliage. Just forget about close range ambush if you are not dugged in. Those PzIIIs could see your M3 GMCs from 2km away when you are maneuvering towards that high ground. lol


Ambush tutorial is kind of difficult as the US tanks and SPGs (in 1943) has inferior sights (except for M10).
Particularly for M3 GMC, it has inferior gunner sight (1x), inferior penetration (55mm/30° @ 500m) and inferior effect (very few M61 APCBC with HE filler were available in early 1943, so most were black tipped solid M61).

Two possible approaches:
1. Line up on that damn high ground, stay exposed, and shoot at max range.
The fire adjustment algorithm was once buffed for M3 GMC, so if they open fire at max AT range (900m~1km), they would get the correct range earlier than the enemy PzIII. Win the firefight with rate of fire and accuracy.
With some luck all 5 PzIII could be knocked out before your M3 GMCs run out of ammo (uncheck fire at infantry to save AP ammo and be more efficient against tanks).

2. After the sight quality update & before the buff mentioned above, the effective range of M3 GMC used to be only 200m ... Darkest hour for US in TWT. lol
Find a reverse slope, ambush from point blank range, was the only way out (at that time). Remember to use the .50 scout jeep to harass and cut off German infantry from those tanks. M3 GMC won't stand a chance against infantry MG34/42.

Thank you for answering. So, what I can get from both of you are:
1. Tutorial barely touches how orders work and I should just play the campaign as soon as I win or lose the tutorial.

2. Take defense barely work for anything and should only be used for digging infantry into trenches.

3. Ambush doesn't work because the troops can't figure out how to line up their LOS between the trees, so I should just get out from the trees as soon as I want to attack them.

4. I should learn from someone else instead of from the game.

[archibaldthe1]

Originally posted by Not Athryan:

Thank you for answering. So, what I can get from both of you are:
1. Tutorial barely touches how orders work and I should just play the campaign as soon as I win or lose the tutorial.

I would use battle editor instead of a campaign- that way you can set up any engagement you want to practice instead of whatever the operation throws at you.

Originally posted by Not Athryan:

2. Take defense barely work for anything and should only be used for digging infantry into trenches.

That’s the case for vehicles. Infantrymen’s “take defense” is ok (easier for them to cover some sort of ground folds and the facing does not matter).

Originally posted by Not Athryan:

3. Ambush doesn't work because the troops can't figure out how to line up their LOS between the trees, so I should just get out from the trees as soon as I want to attack them.

One thing you may try is to enable “AI maneuvering” in combination with “priority target”. In this situation, vehicles will move to get a shot off (provided the crew “knows” where the enemy is.

Originally posted by Not Athryan:

4. I should learn from someone else instead of from the game.

The tutorial missions have little value outside of showing what you could potentially run into. To actually learn it’s a combination of the game’s manual, experimentation and videos/forums.

[Not Athryan]

Originally posted by archibaldthe1:

One thing you may try is to enable “AI maneuvering” in combination with “priority target”. In this situation, vehicles will move to get a shot off (provided the crew “knows” where the enemy is.

Your advice worked wonderful when combined with attack command. I also followed Battleshipfree99's advice on disabling attacking infantry. I successfully wiped the whole tank squad while somehow keeping all of my IFVs intact.

Now, to properly play the campaign...