This is ridiculous, Ivy and Mina need considerable nerfs

[Berry_Canyon]

These are the only two characters where my losses almost never feel justified. Everyone has their fair share of cheap crap but not compared to this. I've beaten a considerable amount of them but I have to work waaay too hard to do so. I'm at B5 so I think I can say I know what I'm talking about. Doesn't matter how much you lab, nobody likes playing against these idiots.

A lot of people I see using Mina end up being free when using any other character. Which is pretty telling. She's too fast for how good her range is. Those stupid high and low break attacks are cancer. Why are they this fast? That stupid long poke she spams, especially after a launcher. And of course it sends you back 3,000 miles. Her damage output is too much. Great ringout game. Why does she have ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ juggles? She's a long range character for ♥♥♥♥♥ sake. It's not so easy to pressure her cause a lot of her attacks are faster than even short-range characters attacks. Seigfried is almost useless against pressure and honestly I think it would be much more fair if the roles were reversed.

One of Ivy's unblockables is safer than most, has an obscure hitbox (which is super unfair at low-mid rank) and is too fast for the damage it does. It takes like half your health. Yoshi's that does similar damage you have to charge for like 3 entire seconds and it's super unsafe. Her stupid grab that tracks. Her CE having a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ GI at the start of it, yeah, that's what she needs, her close-range game was just trash because it's not as good as her mid-long range game. The fact that she can ringout from half the screen. And the one I hate most of all is the guessing game she can put you in from 30 feet away. Why should I have to guess from that range?

If other long-range characters miss you can punish them. If you block or GI them it's easier to get in. Not with these two. They'll still ♥♥♥♥ your ♥♥♥♥ up close and then ush you back to square one.

[John Thicc 3 - Parabelly]

Both Mina and Ivy have been getting nerfs with pretty much every patch since release anyway.

[Habaduba]

Well, B5 isn't verry high and ranked doesn't translate to skill verry well but, both ivy and mina have been high tier for a while, thankfully last patch hit them hard, aspecially ivy
Claims she is low tier arent entirelly unjustified now so we should wait and see.
In regards to balancing the game is exeptionally fair so basically every such post will be complaining about someone different but really if you want to have a reason to be annoyed you should play vs Setsuka amy or Zas, while there are other charrs that feel unfair by their nature, playing vs amy will most deffinitelly not be a pleasant expirience, and while setsu is high execution and not played particullarly clean by anyone yet, its hard to find things she in not "The best at"
As for your specificall complaints

Mina:
-Playing against mina is harder then other charracters on top of the charr beeing fairy simple so its not a surprise ppl can wreck as her without much expirience, This doesn't translate to her beeing OP (Well she still is strong tho)
-The break attacks are mid and low, they are really slow so they aren't an issue
-1B is the low poke you hate, its annoying it returns you to fullscreen as a combo ender yeah, but mina is an oki monster so its probably for the better, the move is heavily punishable on whiff and block but it indeed is annoying, you gotta have good movement to stop it from beeing an issue
-She does have really high damage and RO potentiall indeed, but her attacks arent at all verry fast, she doesn't struggle defensivelly and despite the "zoner vibe" her playstyle is verry mixup and neutrall based
-Siegfried is verry simillar beeing exeptionall in mid/long range with devastating oki, but i would argue his defensive options are way stronger, tho its rather unintuitive so not a big shock, his sidestep is one of the best in the game, aB and wr B are really fast with good crushing, b6 is exeptionall at counterhitting and his horri agA is devastating, add to it the strongest i16 punish in the game and Dark Legacy that just has to be respected and will likelly cost you half a bar for RI to go around even if you guess right, and even then you will just get a mixup, nothing guaranteed.

Ivy:
-Her unblockable is a high so you can duck it, as for the kick unblockable it is quite slow and short range, usable on some oki setup but not aspecially viable
-Yoshi has around 10 unblockables, but if we are talking about the longest one then it deals way over half health
-Her grabs are one of 3 grabs in the game that dont track lol
-Its not a GI, its an aGI, it parries verticalls, its actually one of the worst CE's in the game
-Her RO is actually preety strong yeah
-Closing in on Ivy isn't that risky bit its not hard at first, you will get it with expirience

[ᛉᛏneon@stralᚨᛉ]

No, you are throwing a tantrum.
Especially talking about Ivy, most of what you sad is easy to deal with and extremely risky or straight up made up by you.

Ivy's unblockables are one of most unsafe in the whole game, the one you are mentioning is duckable and launch punishable.

Its not instant either it takes 2.7 seconds to charge that gives you about a week andahalf to duck and punish her.

Then the grab like mentioned above is NOT trackable, i have no clue how you got to this conclusion you kust be walking into it over and over again.

You just straight up tripping dog.
Not only it doesnt track but the inputs for it are
↘️↖️➡️⬇️↘️↙️. And
↘️↖️⬅️➡️↗️↙️➡️
Doesnt look too difficult in training but try doing that mid match buffering this crap.

Then you say stuff like "she rings you out across the screen" complete bs , I want to learn how to ring people out online across the screen, cmon tell me what the move is (then tell you werent standing in one spot for 2 hrs, I mean show me actually something effective that doesnt work by accident or once in 16 tries online)

Ivy is nearly a pure zoner you said yourself her close game is garbage so why are you trying to contrest her from mid to long range?

You make 0 sense homie, maybe play against her some more before crying, like above poster said you want a struggle play some decent Setsukas or Amy then go play Ivy again see the difference.

[Berry_Canyon]

@John Thick 3 - Parabelly not very significant ones.

[Cerberus]

I have to say first that I understand your complaints and that they are valid through the eyes of the beholder. Beyond that there is nothing practice can't fix. I too am very often the victim of the "you're open" spam until I realize I need to calm down and slow my roll. You can just walk in a circle and that particular attack can not hit you.

Mina is fast, that I will give you. But not unreasonably so, I believe Taki is significantly faster to be honest. Also for the range Hilde is far worse to deal with. She has the breaks, the mix ups, the range and the speed. If you can deal with her then you can deal with mina. Your time spent to achieve the B rank means that you have had more than enough time to figure her out.

Ivy has been a pain in the ass from day one. And i don't mean just this iteration. Life long she has been hard to deal with. But again my previous point still stands, these are both launch characters and you have seen them for a long time now.

My guess is that you are an aggressive player and that is not the way to go. You have to slow down and try to read your opponent. In addition to that you also need to go into the match knowing that they will hit you with the things that you have trouble with. This is just how it is, when it works they/we use it.

Lastly the playstyle of the community has long since left the need for the whole move list behind and gravitated to ONLY EVER using the safest attacks. There is no variety, no flair just play safe and get the win. Like you ( I am assuming) I have honed my skill and try to provide a decent mix up and reasonably fair fight. This means I /we lose a lot now since there are too few that play like this. Best bet is to mash RE and grab spam until you win like most others.

Or see above and just slow down a bit.

[Berry_Canyon]

@Habaduba It's high enough to say I'm pretty skilled. It correlates with skill, if it didn't than people wouldn't get stuck. I know it's not super high and I'm not bragging. I just don't want someone to try and be dismissive with "gO lAb" or tHeYrE sCrUb kIlLeRs".

I've gotten the hang of Zas, only thing I'm really wary of about him is his RO game. His kit isn't that varied. Setsuka needs a nerf to her damage for sure and I do struggle but she's very linear, also she's new so I'm surprised I don't struggle more against her. She seems to counter Maxi hard however. Amy is whatever to me. I have a harder time against Xianghua.

You see Mina a lot in A and B ranks and she's put high on tier lists. Offline they're slow. Depends what range she does it from, generally not punishable ime.

At some ranges you can't duck it, I'm pretty sure. Regardless the reward is much higher than the risk. Yoshi's are situational and most require you to sacrifice health. Deathcopter trick is really the only reliable one. It's still one of the best. I literally have to rely on gimmicks half the time in order to do so.

[Berry_Canyon]

@ᛉᛏneon@stralᚨᛉ Lol calm down, you act like I killed your cat. I addressed all this in my other post, fine, it doesn't track, my bad. But that unblockable isn't slow or unsafe and you know it and stop acting like she's buttcheeks up-close. You're acting like she's Astaroth or Seigfried up close, she's still very dangerous at close range.

[Habaduba]

Originally posted by Berry_Canyon:

@Hubaduba It's high enough to say I'm pretty skilled. It correlates with skill, if it didn't than people wouldn't get stuck. I know it's not super high and I'm not bragging. I just don't want someone to try and be dismissive with "gO lAb" or tHeYrE sCrUb kIlLeRs".

I've gotten the hang of Zas, only thing I'm really wary of about him is his RO game. His kit isn't that varied. Setsuka needs a nerf to her damage for sure and I do struggle but she's very linear, also she's new so I'm surprised I don't struggle more against her. She seems to counter Maxi hard however. Amy is whatever to me. I have a harder time against Xianghua.

You see Mina a lot in A and B ranks and she's put high on tier lists. Offline they're slow. Depends what range she does it from, generally not punishable ime.

At some ranges you can't duck it, I'm pretty sure. Regardless the reward is much higher than the risk. Yoshi's are situational and most require you to sacrifice health. Deathcopter trick is really the only reliable one. It's still one of the best. I literally have to rely on gimmicks half the time in order to do so.

Im not trying to be dismissive, reaching B rank shows you had some time with the game, I just want to note that its not enough to consider someone knowledgable on the state of the game, tho discussing balancing is always good and i applaud you for it. Thats the best way to get a hang of the balancing, i talk to top players and build the opinion from that too.

Well idk about any good zas mains in US but there prolly is one, Setsuka has really high damage on whiffpunishment, she has top block punishment, she has the best CH tools in the game, she has the best mid in the game, she has a strong throwgame and great lows,she has really strong Carry for w! and RO, she has a strong i12 safe mid, her 66A is +8 on hit guaranteeing a 214K/1K mixup coz both track at +8, she has really good mixup stances she has.... honestly whatever it just keeps going
X is annoying and maybe really strong but noone ever plays her well enough to be sure, defo weaker then Amy tho.
Mina is put high in tier list, or more like was, the last patch nerfed her quite a bit, that beeing said she is still probably strong yes and i agreed to that in the earlier post (We are still early into the patch so hard to say)
Im preety sure ivy Unblock is duckable at all ranges but sure, never really see that move used by serious ivy's so i may be wrong
As for yoshi unbloackables, he has the strongest ones in the game by far, the deathcopter.... is prolly the worst one tho after 44[ B ], but all the other ones have uses, aspecially SC DF B and SC SDF B... actually the strongest unblockable in the game for sure (Barelly punishable, too fast to react, on top of beeing in a stance with low horri and mid horri making for a 33/33/33 guessing game for you as well as the move can be guaranteed in some setups), and sepuku is the msot usefull one. May seem silly becouse it looks like a bm move, but the key to it is not how it deal damage, the key is the meter it provides, if a round is hopeless yoshi can just sepuku and go into the next round with a whole new bar. In ideal circumstances yoshi has actually true comboes that end in sepuku, ending a round with that would translate to a huge advantage in the next round.

[Berry_Canyon]

@Habaduba I have to disagree. I feel as though I could be S1 and people would still come back with something like "online doesn't matter."

I mean that sounds dismissive. Maybe there's "One" good Zas main in the US. Nobody in the US that uses him knows how to play apparently.

She's brand new, ofc people will think she's amazing. She's linear and has trouble getting in and her mids and lows are pretty telegraphed. Trust me, she'll be placed by most people in mid tier once she has had enough exposure.

I just have more trouble with X but you're right in that they all have almost the same gameplan. But I don't think Amy is any different in this regard.

I mostly see the move used on wake-up, it's rare enough to catch you off-guard at times.

Deathcopter is useless fully charged but otherwise it's fine. Deathcopter trick works great though, the one where he changes direction.

I have tried it mostly in practice tbh, don't feel as if I really need it yet and it does seem harder to pull off. I've really only seen it used effectively against A and S ranked Yoshimitsu players. Everyone else that tries it on me tends to get punished, even these upper tier ones a lot. So idk atm.

[Habaduba]

Originally posted by Berry_Canyon:

@Habaduba I have to disagree. I feel as though I could be S1 and people would still come back with something like "online doesn't matter."

I mean that sounds dismissive. Maybe there's "One" good Zas main in the US. Nobody in the US that uses him knows how to play apparently.

She's brand new, ofc people will think she's amazing. She's linear and has trouble getting in and her mids and lows are pretty telegraphed. Trust me, she'll be placed by most people in mid tier once she has had enough exposure.

I just have more trouble with X but you're right in that they all have almost the same gameplan. But I don't think Amy is any different in this regard.

I mostly see the move used on wake-up, it's rare enough to catch you off-guard at times.

Deathcopter is useless fully charged but otherwise it's fine. Deathcopter trick works great though, the one where he changes direction.

I have tried it mostly in practice tbh, don't feel as if I really need it yet and it does seem harder to pull off. I've really only seen it used effectively against A and S ranked Yoshimitsu players. Everyone else that tries it on me tends to get punished, even these upper tier ones a lot. So idk atm.

Yes they would coz there are plenty bad S1 players,

Yeah i am dismissive, idk enough about the US sceene but the best ♥♥♥ Zas is really underwhelming and I don't see good zas gameplay outside of EU West (Im not beeing elitist, US and JP have good players for charracters that EU doesn't its just the nature of low population games)

Sorry but ill take my own labwork and top players opinion on Setsu over yours, I cant see how an i17 mid and i16 lows are telegraphed either

X and amy have preety different gameplans but both want to get close so i see the confusion

I really dunno what is going on over there if wakeup unbloackable is an issue but... kay

Nah Deathcopter is a pure gimmick, not a strong one either, but it can be a little confusing so take your time and you'll be copterproof in no time

Also i don't play any of those charracters and am not from EU West so im likelly not biased

[ᛉᛏneon@stralᚨᛉ]

@Berry_Canyon
I'm really not trying to be mean, the frustrating part for me is that there is this "illusion" about her, these fake rumors keep circulating that she is hard to play against.

Because of that ppl cry and she keeps getting nerfed and nerfed, but she is up there with most difficult to play characters. Everyone knows she sucks close range so 95% of matches start with people running in your face.
Hence there is like all 8 Ivy's online and 7 of the are A4-A1+

Playing her mid ranks effectively you gotta have reactions and nerves of steel(unless you master every character intermediately and then play her), clawing every bit of dmg , and winning feels like a huge achievement especially against the mix up likes of Talim, Taki, Setsuka, Amy, Yoshi, just pretty much everyone is about better x2 mid to close range.

And somehow she is still "cheap" this abd that, its just frustrating reading ONLY that whenever she is mentioned.
I meant no hard feelings personally

[Habaduba]

Originally posted by ᛉᛏneon@stralᚨᛉ:

@Berry_Canyon
I'm really not trying to be mean, the frustrating part for me is that there is this "illusion" about her, these fake rumors keep circulating that she is hard to play against.

Because of that ppl cry and she keeps getting nerfed and nerfed, but she is up there with most difficult to play characters. Everyone knows she sucks close range so 95% of matches start with people running in your face.
Hence there is like all 8 Ivy's online and 7 of the are A4-A1+

Playing her mid ranks effectively you gotta have reactions and nerves of steel(unless you master every character intermediately and then play her), clawing every bit of dmg , and winning feels like a huge achievement especially against the mix up likes of Talim, Taki, Setsuka, Amy, Yoshi, just pretty much everyone is about better x2 mid to close range.

And somehow she is still "cheap" this abd that, its just frustrating reading ONLY that whenever she is mentioned.
I meant no hard feelings personally

The character was top 1 in beta and despite beeing nerfed every single patch she was still high tier the last patch, now... too early to say, but before this patch... yeah she kinda was cheap

[Azael Ijima δ]

All characters are fairly balanced, we all have our weakness, mine are Amy and Maxi.

[Berry_Canyon]

@Habaduba Lmao what a load of crap. You say this but most likely aren't S1 so how can you really say anything?

You play with players all over the world, you should give me something a bit less anecdotal and actually explain why it would be the case.

She's been out a few days. Funny how we can't have an opinion, especially early unless a pro says so lol I think you just need to lab Zas and Setsuka more.

No confusion, Amy's strings are just easier.

Idk what's going on if you have trouble with Setsuka's lows and mids but kay.

Doesn't hit me, hits my opponents.

You sound pretty biased

Why is it too early to say now for Ivy nerfs but not too early to say Setsuka is a problem?

[Habaduba]

Originally posted by ᛉᛏneon@stralᚨᛉ:

@Berry_Canyon
I'm really not trying to be mean, the frustrating part for me is that there is this "illusion" about her, these fake rumors keep circulating that she is hard to play against.

Because of that ppl cry and she keeps getting nerfed and nerfed, but she is up there with most difficult to play characters. Everyone knows she sucks close range so 95% of matches start with people running in your face.
Hence there is like all 8 Ivy's online and 7 of the are A4-A1+

Playing her mid ranks effectively you gotta have reactions and nerves of steel(unless you master every character intermediately and then play her), clawing every bit of dmg , and winning feels like a huge achievement especially against the mix up likes of Talim, Taki, Setsuka, Amy, Yoshi, just pretty much everyone is about better x2 mid to close range.

And somehow she is still "cheap" this abd that, its just frustrating reading ONLY that whenever she is mentioned.
I meant no hard feelings personally

A charr can be hard and cheap at the same time, half screen Low attackthrows, barelly breakable 80 dmg throws with extreme oki, RRO on a half tracking TJ and a TC move, christmass tree beeing literally the best defensive tool in the game if spaced correctly (it became safe with propper spacing)... All that really cheap