Soul Calibur 6 at EVO, and the hypocrisy of 'Core Values'

[Cypher]

I'm also going to post this on the DOA6 board, just to gauge each communities reactions. And, it's more of a rant against EVO than either of the two games.

https://shoryuken.com/2019/02/26/the-evo-2019-main-stage-game-lineup-has-been-revealed/

So, as most of you are aware, on February the 15th, Team Ninja's stream got cut by EVO officials over 'raunchy content', stating that the footage does not represent their 'core values'. Seeing DOA6 not getting a spot at EVO was predictable in light of this. Equally, Soul Calibur 6 making the lineup was just as predictable.

But let's look at Soul Calibur 6 from the lens of 'Core Values'. In the game, it's possible to strip an opponent down to their underwear through 'armour break'. It's purely cosmetic, and adds nothing to core gameplay. You can't switch this off in the game, and Okubo-san is personally quite fond of this feature, despite it being a long-standing critique from the community. Talim, is a character that is not considered as 'legal' by most countries. Her base layer of her outfit is underwear.

Soul Calibur 6 gets a spot on the main roster.

Now, let's look at DOA6. There's costume damage here too, but the effects are more subtle. Most extreme you'll see is a hole blown though the torso of a bodysuit. Additionally, there's a visual effect to their break blows, which zooms to a close up to someone getting 'respected' in the face. With Marie Rose, Honoka, and Nico, this doesn't happen. Instead you get a wider panned shot. Essentially censorship. I don't agree with it personally, but that's not the point in this context.

DOA6 does not represent the 'core values' of EVO and the FGC at large.

For anyone who's been following either of these topics, the hypocrisy is quite plain for all to see.....

[Noxgarm]

Wow, I wasn't aware that one of the Soulcalibur 6 devs invited two female models to grope each other on stage, and later paused the game mid-stream because " oh look, it looks like those two characters are having sex lol"

Because that's what a DOA devs did, during Evo Japan, which prompted the feed being cut, and the game now being shunned at Evo proper. Please don't displace the goal post, here. Pretty much every japanese fighting game out there has sexualized characters, with one or two underage girls thrown into the mix for good measures. And as for " Armour Break" in SC 6, you're as much likely to see Talim end up in her underwear, as you would pretty much any other characters.

It's not about the content of the games, it's about the treatment of it. SC6 doesn't have the camera linger onto Talim's body, or her adopting needlessly and creepily "sexy" poses. DoA, on the other hand, not only does so, it also can't assume it, and pretends that Marie-Rose, Honoka, NICO and Kokoro are adult, when they clearly are not designed as such.

The only hypocrisy on display here is your own, and that of the DoA devs. DoA has a series of spin-off that is nothing BUT sexualizing the girls, FFS. And as for the devs, they pretended that they wanted to make the game less of a creepshow, but it's very clear that it's nothing but pandering on their part. The least they could do is own up to how creepy they are.

[B(.Y.)BIES!]

SC's nudity is not sexualized.
Is true there is some skimpy outfit especially with characters made with CaS. But there is no sexy poses or cutscenes (aside 2b, and is a direct reference to the original game). But is more a matter the fact that DOA is notoriously a "sexy" game, and the devs never had trouble as portraying and advertise it as that. What they did at evo was intentional. They know that their game is not something that can gain anything appeasing the "core values" of evo. That their fanbase don't give a crap about SJ ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥. This is why they basically gave a middle finger to them, they had to assure their playerbase that they had not go woke.
DOA is already organizing it's own tournaments, probably from way before the evo japan. They knew perfectly that from ameritards events they could not gain anything.

[Ashes-One]

this is what happens when you have a society that accepts everything

[Cypher]

Originally posted by Noxgarm:

Wow, I wasn't aware that one of the Soulcalibur 6 devs invited two female models to grope each other on stage, and later paused the game mid-stream because " oh look, it looks like those two characters are having sex lol"

Because that's what a DOA devs did, during Evo Japan, which prompted the feed being cut, and the game now being shunned at Evo proper. Please don't displace the goal post, here. Pretty much every japanese fighting game out there has sexualized characters, with one or two underage girls thrown into the mix for good measures. And as for " Armour Break" in SC 6, you're as much likely to see Talim end up in her underwear, as you would pretty much any other characters.

It's not about the content of the games, it's about the treatment of it. SC6 doesn't have the camera linger onto Talim's body, or her adopting needlessly and creepily "sexy" poses. DoA, on the other hand, not only does so, it also can't assume it, and pretends that Marie-Rose, Honoka, NICO and Kokoro are adult, when they clearly are not designed as such.

The only hypocrisy on display here is your own, and that of the DoA devs. DoA has a series of spin-off that is nothing BUT sexualizing the girls, FFS. And as for the devs, they pretended that they wanted to make the game less of a creepshow, but it's very clear that it's nothing but pandering on their part. The least they could do is own up to how creepy they are.

Had a similar answer on the DOA6 board, albeit with less hostility. I'll let that slide for now.

I'll give you a similar answer. So, the stream in question was ill-advised. Or possibly they baited EVO to make themselves a fake controversy. Yes, I think it was underhanded to do so on TN's part. That being said, EVO have set themselves new standards with their actions and statements, whether that was their intention or not. Take away Team Ninja's stream, and you'll find that out of the two games, DOA6 aligns closer with what EVO is trying to represent with their brand.

Had Injustice 2 or Guilty Gear Rev2 taken SC6's spot on the lineup, we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, that is not the case, and so I'm left wondering how serious EVO are about representing their core values.

Hope that helped.

[B(.Y.)BIES!]

Originally posted by AGSIndustries:

Had a similar answer on the DOA6 board, albeit with less hostility. I'll let that slide for now.

I'll give you a similar answer. So, the stream in question was ill-advised. Or possibly they baited EVO to make themselves a fake controversy. Yes, I think it was underhanded to do so on TN's part. That being said, EVO have set themselves new standards with their actions and statements, whether that was their intention or not. Take away Team Ninja's stream, and you'll find that out of the two games, DOA6 aligns closer with what EVO is trying to represent with their brand.

Had Injustice 2 or Guilty Gear Rev2 taken SC6's spot on the lineup, we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, that is not the case, and so I'm left wondering how serious EVO are about representing their core values.

Hope that helped.

The reality is that there would have been not controversy if they keeped up the (obvious) facade, showing off male characters, and without sexy girls on their platform. But the truth was bound to come out with the release of the game. They knew that before or later they had to face these "core values". And so they decided to go for the "sooner".

[Noxgarm]

Originally posted by AGSIndustries:

Originally posted by Noxgarm:

Wow, I wasn't aware that one of the Soulcalibur 6 devs invited two female models to grope each other on stage, and later paused the game mid-stream because " oh look, it looks like those two characters are having sex lol"

Because that's what a DOA devs did, during Evo Japan, which prompted the feed being cut, and the game now being shunned at Evo proper. Please don't displace the goal post, here. Pretty much every japanese fighting game out there has sexualized characters, with one or two underage girls thrown into the mix for good measures. And as for " Armour Break" in SC 6, you're as much likely to see Talim end up in her underwear, as you would pretty much any other characters.

It's not about the content of the games, it's about the treatment of it. SC6 doesn't have the camera linger onto Talim's body, or her adopting needlessly and creepily "sexy" poses. DoA, on the other hand, not only does so, it also can't assume it, and pretends that Marie-Rose, Honoka, NICO and Kokoro are adult, when they clearly are not designed as such.

The only hypocrisy on display here is your own, and that of the DoA devs. DoA has a series of spin-off that is nothing BUT sexualizing the girls, FFS. And as for the devs, they pretended that they wanted to make the game less of a creepshow, but it's very clear that it's nothing but pandering on their part. The least they could do is own up to how creepy they are.

Had a similar answer on the DOA6 board, albeit with less hostility. I'll let that slide for now.

I'll give you a similar answer. So, the stream in question was ill-advised. Or possibly they baited EVO to make themselves a fake controversy. Yes, I think it was underhanded to do so on TN's part. That being said, EVO have set themselves new standards with their actions and statements, whether that was their intention or not. Take away Team Ninja's stream, and you'll find that out of the two games, DOA6 aligns closer with what EVO is trying to represent with their brand.

Had Injustice 2 or Guilty Gear Rev2 taken SC6's spot on the lineup, we wouldn't be having this conversation. However, that is not the case, and so I'm left wondering how serious EVO are about representing their core values.

Hope that helped.

I mean, the only reason we're having that conversation is because you're a bored individual with plenty of wrong takes, and hostility is my default position towards people who spouts nonesense, sorry bout that.

Look, if you really think that DOA 6 aligns closer to EVO guidelines, well, you're wrong. Ain't much more I can say about this, really. The simple fact that characters like Marie-Rose and Nico are in the game is proof of that. Think about it a little:

According to in-game lore, those girls are adults. So why the different treatment? Why can I sock Chrisie or Helena in the face with a zoom-in, but not Honoka or Marie-Rose? Wowie, it's almost like those characters are clearly underage, and DoA is a game franchise built by a bunch of reprobates who don't own up to it!

Again, Beach Extreme Whatever is a thing. The third one even has Marie-Rose and Honoka on the cover. Those girls are designed to look underage AND to be sexualized, objectified, and treated like dolls. Talim is a character that happens to be a teenager, and any attempt to objectify her is on the player, not the game. Again, there is no mud wrestling SC spin-off. None of Talim poses are inherently "sexy", neither does the game goes out of it's way to showcase how "sexy" she is through camera work, nor do they have a whole engine dedicated to make clothes transparent through sweat, NOR does it pretends she's older than se is to make it okay.

[John Thicc 3 - Parabelly]

No hypocrisy here. SC is fanservicy too, but in DOA this is much more blatant. DOA was always the fanservicy series. SC is not known for offering this much fanservice and does not have spin off games that are only about fanservice.

The devs of doa also keep talking about fanservice in interviews and presentations to put it into the limelight, the SC devs did not. The presentation that was cut at evo only proves that.

[Cypher]

Originally posted by Noxgarm:

I mean, the only reason we're having that conversation is because you're a bored individual with plenty of wrong takes, and hostility is my default position towards people who spouts nonesense, sorry bout that.

Yeah, I'd really appreciate it if you walked some of that hostility back. I don't want to turn this into a ♥♥♥♥ slinging contest. Nor will I, if I'm not provoked into doing so.

Originally posted by Noxgarm:

Look, if you really think that DOA 6 aligns closer to EVO guidelines, well, you're wrong. Ain't much more I can say about this, really. The simple fact that characters like Marie-Rose and Nico are in the game is proof of that. Think about it a little:

According to in-game lore, those girls are adults. So why the different treatment? Why can I sock Chrisie or Helena in the face with a zoom-in, but not Honoka or Marie-Rose? Wowie, it's almost like those characters are clearly underage, and DoA is a game franchise built by a bunch of reprobates who don't own up to it!

Again, Beach Extreme Whatever is a thing. The third one even has Marie-Rose and Honoka on the cover. Those girls are designed to look underage AND to be sexualized, objectified, and treated like dolls. Talim is a character that happens to be a teenager, and any attempt to objectify her is on the player, not the game. Again, there is no mud wrestling SC spin-off. None of Talim poses are inherently "sexy", neither does the game goes out of it's way to showcase how "sexy" she is through camera work, nor do they have a whole engine dedicated to make clothes transparent through sweat, NOR does it pretends she's older than se is to make it okay.

OK, the mistake you're making with all of this, is that you're not separating DOA6 from the rest of the series. The volleyball games, or any spinoffs shouldn't matter in this context. When you look at only DOA6, and compare it to ONLY Soul Calibur 6, then you'll see that DOA6 is the more conservative package of the two games. If you don't consider previous titles or spinoffs.

Like I said: Whether EVO was right to cut the Team Ninja stream or not is up for debate. BUT, in doing so, they have created a new standard that they must now hold themselves to. And once again, this wouldn't be an issue of contention if there was another game in SC's place, or there was a toggle feature on the armour break that you could switch off for such tournaments.

Evidently, neither scenario is the case.

[SLYPHNIER]

it can be simply just chosen based popularity, like if we see this data :
https://newzoo.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/Top_Tournaments_by_Hours_Watched_EVO_2018.png

u might ask, SamSho not even released why picked over DOA6 ... well my wild-guessing SNK game is picked in roster, and SNK suggesting for SamSho instead KOF14 or other games

u realize that the tournament main-goal is for making money, right?... some of u can give me various reason, but in the end what matter is the "money"
no money no tourney

now if u can provide that that DOA have more player/community than the rest chosen games, maybe we can start questioning on EVO core-value

[CoolINaturrBoy]

Meanwhile,... Mortal Kombat are ok to show Gore and violence on EVO and stream :/.(right)

[John Thicc 3 - Parabelly]

Originally posted by CoolNatureBoy:

Meanwhile,... Mortal Kombat are ok to show Gore and violence on EVO and stream :/.(right)

That's america for you. Sexuality is part of everyone's lifes but shunned in media, whereas violence and gore is deemed ok to show.

[玉藻の前]

Personally I'd think jiggle physics are just a little better than people having their faces ripped off but I guess I'm just backwards.

They went so far as to delete the tweet shortly after due to all the flak they were getting so I think that's already fairly telling that EVO doesn't align with the core values of the FGC or even themselves if they aren't willing to even stand by their point. There are far worse things out there than presenters being a little juvenile with a free cam.

[Sifer2]

The morale of the story really is your better off just keeping your head down to avoid the SJW lynch mobs these days. If you do attract their attention then you definitely don't acknowledge them. Doing so only angered the DOA fanbase so then they tried to come back, and be extra raunchy at Evo. SC6 definitely has fan service, and the season pass is nothing but a loli pass so far but they did a good job of not drawing much attention to it.

[Thine Very Own, Nemesis~]

Originally posted by Tonegawa:

Originally posted by CoolNatureBoy:

Meanwhile,... Mortal Kombat are ok to show Gore and violence on EVO and stream :/.(right)

That's america for you. Sexuality is part of everyone's lifes but shunned in media, whereas violence and gore is deemed ok to show.

This times 100000
"Core Values" are just nonsense that people who want to ruin life spout to make themselves feel powerful honestly I wish we could just ignore the children and let them play with their blocks in the cornor >.>

[Anjon]

Has anyone in this thread even seen the clip people are talking about, or is everyone just parroting everyone else and their memes? I've seen so many people talk about the "hypocrisy" of EVO cutting from DOA6 gameplay when it's pretty obvious from the footage in question that it wasn't the game that made them cut, it was the people demonstrating and the hostesses presenting it.

All of these arguments trying to call out EVO for being hypocrites are immediately irrelevant because they aren't even addressing the reason the stream was cut in the first place. They're arguing about something they either know nothing about or are just interpreting it in a way to intentionally make themselves angry.

For those who are confused as to what that's referring to, in full unedited footage that got the stream cut, you see two hostesses fondling themselves, then you see the footage from the game where the demonstrators act out a "ryona showcase". Youtube that phrase if you need an example. The demonstrators pause on a frame of Nyotengu getting powerbombed so it looks like Bass is eating her out while they comment on how lewd and funny it is.

And they keep going.

And they keep going.

And they keeeeeep goooooooing.

And finally the EVO staff cut the segment and issued their now infamous series of apologies.

To everyone who keeps bringing up the "But they'd never do this to Mortal Kombat footage!" argument, imagine if some giddy demonstrators are trying to show up the gameplay of MK11 and then pause on an x-ray of Sonya for a few minutes so they could try and count the individual wrinkles on her labia while they giggle like children.

No? You wouldn't be the least bit annoyed by that? Not even a little? Carry on then.