Yoshimitsu, Raphael and Azwel are broken at high level play

[miata]

i10 - 14 on all there top moves and are safe. Got some good safe mix up options and can probably beat most players by just knowing how to play neutral game. God dayum

[VonDodo]

Originally posted by Dr Gori:

hold the phone. GI to AA is "abusing guesses?"

not "earning" mixups? what are you even talking about?

if i get a read, why would i NOT use GI?

Why should i again explain that if you use an universal panic button with 10+ frame window and early activation is not a guess.

And the fact that GI gives more advantage against pokes is even more stupid.

See vid below

also, ducking as risk vs reward? you know, that's been a feature of nightmare always, yes? "knight low stance," one of my favorites back in SC1 and 2. in fact, while both nightmare and sigfried still have this stance, of the two moves i liked the most, each got one. siggy got the launcher, nightmare got the poke.

Most damaging moves are mid verticals.
When you put on the plate combos from crouch that can outdamage by almost twice any possible risk… you are screwing game balance.

See video against zasalamel.

They need to lower NM damage.
I bet they will…. (also review terror charge)
Lets discuss it in few days.

making a few well grounded complaints, but i almost feel that's an accident, because you're using scrub logic.

You instead seems to lack any fact while showing an interesting level of hypocrisy in this statement.

Can i get a definition of "scrub"... because i keep throwing data and numbers and Always receive these answers… Not a single technical answer….

Yet i point you to the vid below for an explanation of the issue basing on another game. (same problem yet)

first, stop talking about people "spamming" alltogether. ANY time you see someone complaining that others "spam" those people are being huge scrubs.

Spam is a word with a meaning.
If you mixup GI with step and fast pokes each time you are at disadvantage you are literally spamming.
You don't know what is going to happen and you don t even care what your opponent is doing.
You mixup pressure and panic buttons like it was a rythm game in every single match.
No matchup knowledge needed...

second, when you say someone is spamming a defensive option, you become king of the scrubs. i am very much reminded of the complaint that people "just spam block" in DBZF.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSgA_nK_w3A

i get some people are new to fighting games expecially on PC, and they struggle to understand some basic concepts.
Look at that vid.
it will explain you the concept....yet if you played old SCs you should already have understood.

also, i found two tourneys post release but pre patch featuring raph in the top 8:
https://youtu.be/2TgFTBZRr40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8lGm8sduOSE

First is interesting and exactly the one i referred to
BUT you forgot to check the UPLOAD date:
Oct 24 and 25.

Less than 6 days after the launch.
(the second is TERRIBLE and still the day after).


Did you read when i explained lack of framelists benefit a lot raphael?
Did you also see anything OP there?

Raph got 10X strong with the glitch, how comes he still disappeared from tournaments and was abandoned by pro players after a week?
(no trace of glitch in the vid and also its not that raph has NM matchup issue with top tiers).

see below

considering it was only a 1 month window, and everyone at the time was trying to exploit the bugs in voldo, that's actually not too bad.

Wrong
Voldo bugS (he has at least 3 (just one was fixed) weren't already discovered.
Also there was no frame data as i said...people had no idea on what they were doing…
6 days after release.

The frame data program was released short after.

And short after AG cancel was discovered that made raphael WAY stronger…
Yet no sign of raphaels since then in tournaments

With framelist you should know this:
Most preps have:
33% mixup success on HIT
less than 1/3 damage reward than you risk

or 20% (to 0%) success (see HARD READ and timing) on block prep starters (damage wise, chances are legit on block… the problem is that 60% cast has true 50% mixups on block and many even safe that deals more damage than they risk).


Want to see on details?
Prep B is an high and 10 frames and its the fastest move.
Preps on block varies mostly from -4 to -6 (few -2 a single one +7 but it needs a long risky setup and its an EARNED frame trap nobody ever complained about).
Prep A is 14 frame and its the only tracking.
(also step is 12 and starts at 4 i think not 100% sure though on starting frame but its no less than 4)


Now before calling people scrubs do the math yourself. (remember Shadow Evade only activates if raphael doesn't press any button but at that point any i16/24 will beat prep).
And trust me, differently from NIGHTMARE crowd i already factored pushbacks, spacing and other variables (feel free to prove me wrong as i did with them).

Only case where they matter a little is in the Talim matchup.

To play defensive you NEED to test everything and raph IS a defensive character.

Now prove me i am a scrub with REAL answers.

[Thundercracker]

Originally posted by VonDodo:

Why should i again explain that if you use an universal panic button with 10+ frame window and early activation is not a guess.

And the fact that GI gives more advantage against pokes is even more stupid.

See vid below

but it's not much different than in previous games. they simplified it, yes, but it's not a "universal panic button." that's RE. GI still takes timing, and you have to do it to the correct attacks to even get advantage. again, so far as i know, this is the first socal where a successful parry may just reset you to neutral, not give you an advantage.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

Most damaging moves are mid verticals.
When you put on the plate combos from crouch that can outdamage by almost twice any possible risk… you are screwing game balance.

See video against zasalamel.

They need to lower NM damage.
I bet they will…. (also review terror charge)
Lets discuss it in few days.

let's review. verts do the most damage. true, this has been true in the series, always.
crouching combos can do 2x the damage of standing? are we talking about a crouching or WR launcher here? also, it is not more reward than risk, in this game. ducking opens you up to a host of lethal hits, so the actual risk vs reward depends on the characters in the match. do that ducking on, say, voldo, and see what happens.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

You instead seems to lack any fact while showing an interesting level of hypocrisy in this statement.

Can i get a definition of "scrub"... because i keep throwing data and numbers and Always receive these answers… Not a single technical answer….

i've given you the definition before, im sure. but in case you've forgotten, http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub

also, on hyocrasy: i am not doing what i am taking you to task for. i am not complaining about the game or characters, calling them broken. right now, raph is (probably) bugged, but that's it.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

Spam is a word with a meaning.
If you mixup GI with step and fast pokes each time you are at disadvantage you are literally spamming.
You don't know what is going to happen and you don t even care what your opponent is doing.
You mixup pressure and panic buttons like it was a rythm game in every single match.
No matchup knowledge needed...

again i poiint you to the "introducing the scrub" section of serlin's book.:

Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is a tactic close to my heart that often elicits the call of the scrub. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. That is true by definition of playing to win. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.

so again, when you talk of "spamming" you're putting a bright neon sign above your head that reads "SCRUB."

Originally posted by VonDodo:

i get some people are new to fighting games expecially on PC, and they struggle to understand some basic concepts.
Look at that vid.
it will explain you the concept....yet if you played old SCs you should already have understood.

i've already seen that video. i dont quite agree with it. several times, the narrator sounds like he is trying to "gatekeep" the FGC, disdaining that execution has gotten simpler, allowing "anyone to be the next diago."

i think it's fine. it's just a shift in roles. now, ye olde combo masters will not be the only ones to be able to DO those combos.... but those masters are probably going to be the ones to find them. anyone can execute, it takes something more to innovate.

you know, to be honest, i think that video highlights a diffrent problem with gaming communities: we want the same thing over and over, even though we complain that we want something new.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

First is interesting and exactly the one i referred to
BUT you forgot to check the UPLOAD date:
Oct 24 and 25.

Less than 6 days after the launch.
(the second is TERRIBLE and still the day after).

i did check dates. as i said, after launch, but before patch. patch was nov 16, as you can see by clicking the "news" tab at the top of this page.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

Did you read when i explained lack of framelists benefit a lot raphael?
Did you also see anything OP there?

as i said, this is pre-patch, which means that raph does not yet have his silly tracking, the one thing people complain about.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

Raph got 10X strong with the glitch, how comes he still disappeared from tournaments and was abandoned by pro players after a week?
(no trace of glitch in the vid and also its not that raph has NM matchup issue with top tiers).

as i've said, there is no trace of the glitch, because this is pre-patch. raph's tracking bug was introduced in the patch.

also, i know they are kind of the same guy, but that's sigfried the video i posted.

finally, you made the claim that raph was in the top 8 only once, and that was pre release, until post patch when his tracking bug was found. i found another top 8 that included raph in the very short window of after launch but before patch. raph is a pretty popular character, and people play him regardless of where he is on the tiers.
see below

Originally posted by VonDodo:

Wrong
Voldo bugS (he has at least 3 (just one was fixed) weren't already discovered.
Also there was no frame data as i said...people had no idea on what they were doing…
6 days after release.

the main voldo bug, the one that actually mattered, was once you SCed, it lasted forever.

i also wouldent say "no idea." they didnt have framedata, true, but im pretty sure anyone who's played a socal game before had some idea. i've been using what is now the sigfried moveset since SC1. my fast moves are still fast, my damaging moves still damage. my combos still work (probably better than they ever have, to be honest,) and what is safe vs unsafe on block hasent really changed. the specifics have been tweaked, but the general idea has stayed the same.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

The frame data program was released short after.

And short after AG cancel was discovered that made raphael WAY stronger…
Yet no sign of raphaels since then in tournaments

https://youtu.be/o7UQTPKaxsM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nrtysY_iDMk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U69oBb3imJo
no sign?

Originally posted by VonDodo:

With framelist you should know this:
Most preps have:
33% mixup success on HIT
less than 1/3 damage reward than you risk

a framelist cannot predict mixup success, nor can it plot potential damage delivered vs damage taken.

the first relies on your opponent's play. the second is variable, character to character. you'd need a gigantic chart for every single action possible.

as to risk vs reward, it's called a counter hit. combined with something lethal and worked into a full combo, we're talking between 50-80%, depending on the character.

you're confusing me, now, though. before it was sounding like you felt you could do too much damage while ducking, now you sound like you're complaining that you do too little.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

or 20% (to 0%) success (see HARD READ and timing) on block prep starters (damage wise, chances are legit on block… the problem is that 60% cast has true 50% mixups on block and many even safe that deals more damage than they risk).

when everyone is OP, no one is OP, or so common logic dictates. so we should give the other 40% some "true 50% mixups."

let me ask something..... when you play, what are you watching? are you looking at your character?

because if you kept your eyes on your opponent, you'd be able to read the mixups, and counter. also, if GI is so OP, how are their even mixups at all?

i mean, it sounds like you're not considering all the tools in the kit.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

Want to see on details?
Prep B is an high and 10 frames and its the fastest move.
Preps on block varies mostly from -4 to -6 (few -2 a single one +7 but it needs a long risky setup and its an EARNED frame trap nobody ever complained about).
Prep A is 14 frame and its the only tracking.
(also step is 12 and starts at 4 i think not 100% sure though on starting frame but its no less than 4)

but GI is 10+ frames with early activation, and i believe everyone but ivy has at least one move that is 10 frames (and may be a low depending on the character)

Originally posted by VonDodo:

Now before calling people scrubs do the math yourself. (remember Shadow Evade only activates if raphael doesn't press any button but at that point any i16/24 will beat prep).
And trust me, differently from NIGHTMARE crowd i already factored pushbacks, spacing and other variables (feel free to prove me wrong as i did with them).

like i said, you confuse me by making the right complaints for the wrong reasons.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

Only case where they matter a little is in the Talim matchup.

i would be amazed if they didnt, as that's her gimmick.

Originally posted by VonDodo:

To play defensive you NEED to test everything and raph IS a defensive character.

Now prove me i am a scrub with REAL answers.

anyone can be a defensive character, really. well, except perhaps nightmare. and like i said, you're making goood complaints, but you're getting there using scrub logic.

stop worrying about "earning" mixups and "spamming" moves, and you'll just about be there.