Not fair

[ChanceGateau]

I just started playing Catan Universe. I have the option "random player starts" DEselected.... I want to go first... the issue is this: It went out of turn order the second round where you place settlements and roads. Is it supposed to do this? if so, that's extremely unfair.

The turn order it used.

P1 (me), P2, P3, P4, P2, P3, P4, P1 (me).

Shouldn't I have gotten a turn after P4?

[Dobbelklick]

The first two "rounds" you saw are just for initial settlement (1st round) and city (2nd round) placement. It goes: player 1 2 3 4 build a settlement, and then 4 3 2 1 build a city and THEN the first real round starts with player 1 rolling the dice.

You should play the tutorials. They're quick and will show you all the quirks. :)

[ChanceGateau]

Originally posted by brathorst:

The first two "rounds" you saw are just for settlement (1st round) and city (2nd round) placement. It goes: player 1 2 3 4 build a settlement, and then 4 3 2 1 build a city and THEN the first real round starts with player 1 rolling the dice.

You should play the tutorials. They're quick and will show you all the quirks. :)

I did play them... they're heaps of steaming offal; like the AIs and Random Generators seem to be. (The moment I get 8 resources... a bleeding 7... every time. AIs have 15 resources... not a bleeding 7 to be seen.)

I wanted to start first because in 12 games (random starts) I have NEVER gone first.

One would think that it would go in the same order both rounds... I started off at a serious disadvantage because everyone had placed twice to my once... doesn't seem right.

[Dobbelklick]

Well, the players can't obviously act all at the same time. Over the long run you'll get equal chances as everyone else.

[ChanceGateau]

Originally posted by brathorst:

Well, the players can't obviously act all at the same time. Over the long run you'll get equal chances as everyone else.

Not when the AI and quote-unquote "random number generator" seems to be a tragedy of epic proportions. I have had games where the numbers I chose at the beginning (5, or 6 or 8) might come up once or twice the whole game, and the rarer numbers like 2 or 11, or 10 hit every time to give the AIs resources, giving me basically nothing. I pick the rarer numbers, and it goes back to the 5s and 6s and 8s. It almost seems deliberate.

I am a smart fellow, and I don't mind games with steep learning curves, but when I am hobbled by the haphazardly constructed AIs and RNGs, it makes the game annoying to the point that I don't even want to play.

[N o i r]

Originally posted by ChanceGateau:

Not when the AI and quote-unquote "random number generator" seems to be a tragedy of epic proportions. I have had games where the numbers I chose at the beginning (5, or 6 or 8) might come up once or twice the whole game, and the rarer numbers like 2 or 11, or 10 hit every time to give the AIs resources, giving me basically nothing. I pick the rarer numbers, and it goes back to the 5s and 6s and 8s. It almost seems deliberate.

I am a smart fellow, and I don't mind games with steep learning curves, but when I am hobbled by the haphazardly constructed AIs and RNGs, it makes the game annoying to the point that I don't even want to play.

There is zero evidence of the RNG being biased. Bad luck can happen, and in a realistic situation the distribution of dice rolls will not be fully compliant with the expected curve.

What you described can be attributed to bad luck, or merely our innate human tendency of noticing adverse events more than the positive ones.

[ChanceGateau]

Then explain this to me: If the dice or RNG isn't biased... why does someone hit that seven (yes I know that 6 and 7 are the most common rolls on two dice), the same turn as I hit that magical 8 resources in my stash... and if the AIs have 10 or 12 or even 15 resources, no seven in sight (for 3-4 turns at a time, giving them ample time to build thier settlements)?

All of my games have been this way, not just one here and there... how can I build a settlement (requires 2 each of wood, brick, sheep and grain), and get those victory points if the robber steals my stuff (literally) 8 out of 10 times?

[N o i r]

Bad luck, that's all. Taking notice of unfavorable events and ignoring the favorable ones is a common pattern for us humans.

"All of my games have been this way" is not an accurate description of a statistical event. If you want to measure if a given event happens too few or too often you must first describe it in such a way that is probability can be calculated, then you must attempt it a sufficiently high amount of times to verify if it's "unfair".

[bwinter]

Originally posted by N o i r:

Bad luck, that's all.

You have no proof of that.

But gosh...this games seems to be NOTHING other than "bad luck"....hmmm...

[ChanceGateau]

Originally posted by N o i r:

Bad luck, that's all. Taking notice of unfavorable events and ignoring the favorable ones is a common pattern for us humans.

You are making generalizations. Not every single player is devoid of emotional/psychological intelligence. Not every situation requires definitive 100% iron-clad 1,000,000 rolls documented proof to show that something is up... isn't that counterintuitive to your argument. As humans, we can figure out pretty quickly when something seems to be unfair, using nothing more then our intuition; and by putting statistics aside (which anyone knows can be used to prove anything you want it to)

From my experiences so far (and I do admit that it's somewhat limited), it's either "meh... that roll didn't do much." (except to maybe give other players resources), the occasional (perhaps 1-in-10) one of "yay, I finally got 1 stone... or 1 grain"... or more often than anything else, "the robber again... of course, I just hit 8 resources."

[N o i r]

Originally posted by bwinter:

Originally posted by N o i r:

Bad luck, that's all.

You have no proof of that.

But gosh...this games seems to be NOTHING other than "bad luck"....hmmm...

Yes, of course I have no proof - how could I "prove" something like that?
It's still the most likely explanation, when a series of dice rolls does not go the desired way.

[N o i r]

Originally posted by ChanceGateau:

Not every situation requires definitive 100% iron-clad 1,000,000 rolls documented proof to show that something is up...

If you are making a statement suggesting that the RNG is rigged, and you most definitely have from the very title of this thread, yes, you do.
In order for your case to have any merit, you need a statistically significant sample to show that the rolls are diverging from the expected results - it's how statistics work.

Originally posted by ChanceGateau:

we can figure out pretty quickly when something seems to be unfair

Having suspicion by only noticing when things go wrong and not noticing when they go right is not "figuring out", it's a form of confirmation bias.

Originally posted by ChanceGateau:

and by putting statistics aside (which anyone knows can be used to prove anything you want it to)

Uh... no.

[ShadowDark3]

Originally posted by ChanceGateau:

Originally posted by N o i r:

Bad luck, that's all. Taking notice of unfavorable events and ignoring the favorable ones is a common pattern for us humans.

From my experiences so far (and I do admit that it's somewhat limited), it's either "meh... that roll didn't do much." (except to maybe give other players resources), the occasional (perhaps 1-in-10) one of "yay, I finally got 1 stone... or 1 grain"... or more often than anything else, "the robber again... of course, I just hit 8 resources."

People make sense of the world by seeing patterns—even when the patterns we think we're seeing aren't really there. It is fairly well-studied and well-documented. There is a small chance that you are very unlucky and genuinely tend to roll a 7 after drawing up to 8+ cards. It is far more likely that you have focused in on these events, and the frequency this scenario happens is not statistically significant.

I'm not saying you haven't had a bad time or discounting your experience, but it's not a case of the game being unfair.