Any strategy to not lose ships to the AI's "all in"

[Ice Man]

Seems like the only trick the AI has anymore that matters is bringing like 5 big gunships and just screaming in from across the map focusing whatever ship they get a good bearing on. It's getting really old and I'm about done with the game because of it. I don't mind losing a ship in a good fight but all it is all 5 gunships and as many munitions as they can bear on one ship. Blow it up as I focus the rest down one by one and win. Is this just the game?

[Zig the Caver]

Last I played there is a part of the campaign where its mass AI use of cerastes/revenants. Best strategy is to turn and move in the opposite direction. Have one of your ships spot targets then use missiles from the whole fleet to whittle away. Once ID'd, even if a ship moves out of sensor range it still stays targetable. You can focus on one ship or spread the damage so armour facing you is down. Then turn your ships into a line-abreast formation and use direct fire weapons to finish them off. Its a bit of a matter of predicting their armour facings by the time you choose to have the gun duel. Or simply wiping out a few so you end up with far higher DPS for the gun fight.

Basically keeping distance and using missiles is the only method I found that offered max protection for my own ships.

Maybe you have already, but you'll get far better munitions that can make this less of a grind. The Cylons will also get other ships where it won't be so much gun ship focused.

[Lack of Stuff]

Try some mines. The AI often takes pains not to run into mines so you can use them to keep distance.

[USS Midway veteran]

You may be playing the game at a level that your experience and knowledge may not be ready for. From your statement, it sounds like you are playing on the Admiral or Fleet Admiral level. Until you have learned more about offensive and defensive tactics - and this game has a long learning curve - you may want to learn more about the game on the Commander level.

[Ice Man]

Originally posted by Pugio:

Last I played there is a part of the campaign where its mass AI use of cerastes/revenants. Best strategy is to turn and move in the opposite direction. Have one of your ships spot targets then use missiles from the whole fleet to whittle away. Once ID'd, even if a ship moves out of sensor range it still stays targetable. You can focus on one ship or spread the damage so armour facing you is down. Then turn your ships into a line-abreast formation and use direct fire weapons to finish them off. Its a bit of a matter of predicting their armour facings by the time you choose to have the gun duel. Or simply wiping out a few so you end up with far higher DPS for the gun fight.

Basically keeping distance and using missiles is the only method I found that offered max protection for my own ships.

Maybe you have already, but you'll get far better munitions that can make this less of a grind. The Cylons will also get other ships where it won't be so much gun ship focused.

This is basically the problem. It's just massive fleets of cerates/revanats and arachnes that come screaming in guns blazing all focusing one ship. It's easy enough to destroy them eventually (or within 3 turns even as they all-in so hard it's just shoot-em up at +9 atk time for all but the one vessel being focused) but not without taking losses which is kind of the main challenge in an endurance campaign like this.

I've employed this super cheesy missile kite strategy plenty of times, and while it does work it's extremely lame and quite unfun to play. Honestly though I'd get over it, but half the levels are also escort levels and this simply doesn't work on levels they put the civi ships anywhere near the cylon or on a bearing straight at them in ships that take 3 turns to make a half circle while cylons swoop in overclocked to the max covering half the galaxy in a turn. it's likewise why the suggestions of mines or any other type of munitions simply don't work on said levels, by the time they are armed the cylon has already speed-racered past the mines or you have to set them so far ahead you basically have to just mine your own escorts as they make the worlds longest turn around

[Ice Man]

Originally posted by USS Midway veteran:

You may be playing the game at a level that your experience and knowledge may not be ready for. From your statement, it sounds like you are playing on the Admiral or Fleet Admiral level. Until you have learned more about offensive and defensive tactics - and this game has a long learning curve - you may want to learn more about the game on the Commander level.

Do you do anything but come on these forums and suggest that people don't know how to play or don't know to start at the basic level? I've looked for answers to this annoying gunship stuff in several threads and you're in all of them offering no help but essentially "git gud." If you're so good and advanced enough to play off the base difficulty maybe share some these amazing tactics you seem to have come up with that nulls these annoying strats... or i guess just continue your life of coming in to chime in with noting at all useful

[easytarget]

Only a child (or an adult suffering from arrested development) fails to examine a tactical challenge to find solutions but instead whines at others about their shortcomings.

Here's the negative review you posted that reads pretty much like this thread:

"After playing awhile it becomes very obvious the AI is just one boring trick of not even trying to win but just kill a single ship before losing. Kinda ruins all the set up and lore and genuinely great idea for a game with super lazy ai scripting that is noting but annoying"

So 85 hours in and still can't figure out?! So you come here to berate people while asking for their help.

Got to give it ya kid, you got balls.

[Ice Man]

Originally posted by easytarget:

Only a child (or an adult suffering from arrested development) fails to examine a tactical challenge to find solutions but instead whines at others about their shortcomings.

Here's the negative review you posted that reads pretty much like this thread:

"After playing awhile it becomes very obvious the AI is just one boring trick of not even trying to win but just kill a single ship before losing. Kinda ruins all the set up and lore and genuinely great idea for a game with super lazy ai scripting that is noting but annoying"

So 85 hours in and still can't figure out?! So you come here to berate people while asking for their help.

Got to give it ya kid, you got balls.

I've come on here asking for help to one specific AI strategy that is basically a giant drag, and imo kinda ruins the feeling of the game. I was very into the game before this phase of it, but now that it's basically turned into all the same types of battles that all go the same way and it's gotten pretty old. Cylon max caps gunships (which match your fleet strength so really its better to have weaker fleets which is also ass-backwards..but that's another discussion), crank all their subsystems to max and right clicks one of your ships until it dies then picks another if you haven't killed them all because they aren't really fighting "tactically" they're just doing an all-in over and over and over and over again. Tactics

I've probably played 30 hours, you are aware that steam doesn't know if you're actually playing right? just if the game is running or not...And some of those extra hours were spent tabbed out trolling these forums looking for answers in the several other threads of people equally annoyed at this annoying strat but there's always the same guy jumping in saying git gud and nothing else... Is that what you are refering to as "help?"

Oh and thank you also for coming in and not offering any answers to the question whatsoever either, real helpful, kid

[Ice Man]

Originally posted by USS Midway veteran:

Originally posted by Ice Man:

Do you do anything but come on these forums and suggest that people don't know how to play or don't know to start at the basic level? I've looked for answers to this annoying gunship stuff in several threads and you're in all of them offering no help but essentially "git gud." If you're so good and advanced enough to play off the base difficulty maybe share some these amazing tactics you seem to have come up with that nulls these annoying strats... or i guess just continue your life of coming in to chime in with noting at all useful

If you would keep your mind open and your mouth shut long enough to listen to someone that has already done this you won't spend so much time on here complaining about getting your @$$ kicked. Do you have the balls to do that, kid?

Y'all ever gonna give an actual answer then or what? Still not seeing one

[Sir Wagglepuss III]

Direct answer to the early game Cerastes problem:

It's the first real threat you'll face, and likely the biggest one of the early game.

The most powerful tool in Deadlock that you will have is knowledge. In the campaign during random battles it's smart to start your fleet as far back as possible and send out squadrons to ID the enemy targets whilst backing off, so you can figure out exactly what you're dealing with.

On a further note for knowledge is power, learn to spot the 5x Cerastes fleet. In the bottom left of the strategy layer you have buttons to show lists of player fleets, planets, etc. The button for Cylon fleets will show you the fleet point power of the Cylon fleets you have spotted, and if you hover over their button there, it will show you which fleet on the map it is. The point cost of a Cerastes is 550 points, making the 5x Cerastes fleet 2750 points. If a Cylon fleet attacks you with 2750 points, it's a 5x Cerastes fleet and you need to position and outfit your fleet accordingly.

So we understand how to spot the Cerastes fleet, what can we do?

Start your fleet as far back as possible, and equip your fleet with Raptors. Vipers are going to get mauled by the Cerastes even if you take the time to go full vertical and dive bomb them, as overlapping fields of fire are going to ensure you keep taking shots. Raptors on the other hand can board the targets, and provide powerful debuffs that screw over Cerastes and Revenants pretty hard. -20 processing power, -15% accuracy, -20% repair speed. As well as this, the ship has to divert power to armoury to remove your boarders, which is even more power lost. The Cerastes goes from fully powered navigation, fire control and engineering to only being able to fully power one of them, and partially power another. When they inevitably close in on you, it will make gunning them down much less painful.

For tactics, get your Raptors out there ASAP and ID the targets. Board 4 of them immediately if possible (losses permitting) and dump all missiles on a Cerestes you don't board. Keep your fleet moving away from the enemy, whilst presenting your broadside to them. Ideally your formation should be a line or a stack - So long as all ships in the fleet can simultaneously fire on a single target at once, as well as have clear missile line of fire. Until you get Artemis in full production with at least 3x per fleet, ships like the Cerastes and Revenant are going to tear you up and you're going to have to treat them with a little respect.

So long as you keep backing off and firing missiles, and focus firing the Cerastes that come in, you should handle them fine. Ensure ships switch to full offensive posture for maximum range and accuracy when the enemy comes within 6500m or so (Don't do it before then, as you'll be losing speed for nothing). You can press backslash "\" to show weapon arcs and range and it updates on the fly according to posture. At +5 offensive you will match Cylon gun range, any more posture after that and you start out-ranging them, so building up officers for better posture is key.

But yes, in the early game you do need to play cautiously against Cerastes and Revenants. However, the game does provide you tools to simplify fighting them later on. The Artemis can smash the crap out of most any combat ship in season 1 so long as it stays under it and uses it's BS-Arty, whilst Assault Raptors are excellent for sniping gunships and then painting targets for better BS-Arty accuracy once their missiles are spent. Eventually you'll get things like the Janus, Minerva, Jupiter, etc, with high level officers and you'll have tons of options for deleting gunships from many angles.

TL;DR: Is it a pain to deal with the gunship rush? Yes, for the early game. However the game gives you tools to handle it better as the campaigns go on.

Have I answered your question in enough depth or do you require further detail?

[Ice Man]

Thanks for the response. The raptor idea in particular is one I hadn't thought of to try yet and I could see definitely making the difference, at least the times I know it's coming.

The biggest problem, I think, is when this happens on escort maps. It pretty much nullifies being able to keep your distance and firing missiles, dictating fights on your own terms, allowing you much in the way of positioning, or allowing you to play with much caution. By the time you've ID'd them they are already in gun range of you or your escorts.

I have a few officers close to max leveled but it doesn't seem like fleet size makes a difference as the cylon just match it. Not with Cerastes in my 7000 fleet groups, but with 6-7 arachnes and revenants instead. I haven't unlocked the janus because I already have a ton of rangers and minotaurs in all my fleets, but I guess against gunship armadas (which also seems to be the only real threat in the game) having the janus doing both could be more efficient. Likewise I haven't unlocked the minerva because so far the artemis wrecks anything but these massive gun fleets also (which it does still wreck but the all-in usually has it on full defense until it's gunned down in two turns, or it guns everything else down in two turns on full attack itself, but another less armored ship took the brunt) and if they can take down an artemis they can easily drop minervas. Having officers with more fleet points seems like a very double-edged sword. I get more options, but they get more guns and more armor for their all-in, and I also risk losing bigger ships, and in the end it's just losing a minotaur or an artemis to an arachne swarm vs losing a manticore or adamant to a ceraste swarm.

There's just so many means of defense against everything else but gunships it seems. If you can't kite them with missiles/munitions due to mission constraints it seems like you're just SOL. And at least for my game, it is far, far and away their favorite ship composition to the point building against anything else seems like a waste. Maybe the raptors will make a difference though. If up to 3 of the guns that come screaming in are 20% less effective it could be just enough to keep the focused target alive long enough

[Sir Wagglepuss III]

Assault Raptors go a long way to making gunships much more tolerable to deal with. They have a total of 72 damage on board (3 models, each fires 6 missiles at 2 damage, 18 missile salvo for a pair of 36 damage strikes), allowing 3 squadrons to pretty much one-tap Cerastes and Nemesis, or critically damage a Revenant. Then they can target paint and give +15% accuracy to all friendlies firing on the target. Keeping 2-4 Assault Raptors in your fleet works fantastically for dealing with rushing gunships.

Fleet size escalation is relative to your progression in the campaign. To start off with you'll want 5k fleets made up of 6x Adamants or 3x Adamant 4x Berzerk compositions, then translate into 3x Artemis fleets with support. Ramp up your fleet size compared to theirs, and compared to your tech, rather than doing so blindly. Also build all fleet size up together, rather than having one strong centrepiece fleet.

Minervas are solid due to their range. They are the longest range ship you can field having 6400m gun range at +4 offensive posture (Standard max no officer) and only becoming more ridiculous as officers level up and your offensive posture increases. The two munition slots are the icing on the cake.

Escort missions are a different kettle of fish and require preparation. Fortunately, escort missions are story missions or side missions and you'll always know they are coming.

Arachne swarms shouldn't be hitting you that hard, as they have pretty much 0 firepower under them. Simply dive dive dive. Keep diving your fleet and focus fire Revenants/Cerastes with your munitions, long range guns, or squadrons after you clear the skies.

[Sir Wagglepuss III]

Extra note: As far as packing Raptors is concerned, you only *need* 3x Vipers present in your fleet until Arachne start appearing, as the Talon is their only source of squadrons until then. That means you can comfortably keep reserve Raptors on the ships not housing the Vipers. If you have Berzerks in a fleet, prioritise them for housing Vipers as their 50 evasion they provide benefits Vipers much more than Raptors.

For example my "standard" loadout is as follows: If I'm running 6x Adamants, I'll run 3x Vipers, 3x Raptors. If I'm running 3x Adamants, 4x Berzerks, I'll take 4x Vipers (On Berzerks), 3x Raptors (On Adamants). If I see that 2750 FP number, then I swap out for full Raptors on the prep screen, and swap back next battle.

Once Arachne show up I kick it up to minimum 5x Vipers, then when Basestars start chiming in I go up to minimum 8x Vipers. Though by the time Basestars start getting involved, you shouldn't be far off having Atlas, which can bring Raptors or Assault Raptors in their support slot.

[twosnark]

Interesting thread.

I am replaying S&S on Admiral level (or whatever the second from the hardest is); and am having "similar" issues.

I concur with the early strategy of "turn and run", using vipers to ident and then taking out one or two targets with missles/vipers before getting into the gun battle.

At the next step, with 6-7000pt fleets, I am having more trouble as I am seeing the gunships backed up by a few base stars. The *clear* solution is to run 3+ Arties. . . but I am trying to limit to 2 BattleStars per fleet as a challenge. With two BS's, a Minotaur, and a few smaller ships; I am having issues with my fighters and small ships tied up with fighter spam; one big ship hiding under a flack wall, and the remaining battlestar not having enough firepower to deal with the 2-3 gunships coming right behind the fighters (especially if they come in low). This is particularly acute in a fleet where I have a 6000 cap (trying to level up an officer) up against a 6-7000pt toaster fleet.

I am now distributing Hercs to the fleets. . .but it will take awhile to bulk up.

I may have to rearrange to have 3 x battlestar 6000 pt fleets to get through this. I am pretty sure that when I am at the 8,000 pt level that 2 x battlestar and 2 x Herc should be a winning combo. . . . even against heavier fleets. (My previous experience suggests that even if I have a battlestar hiding behind flak, that a still have enough firepower in the single battlestar a pair of hercs can deal with the fighters and gunships)

Edit: Third time lucky. The battle that was giving me trouble, I got on the third (or was it fourth?) attempt.

Colonials: 2 x Artie, 1 x Minator, 2 x Adamant, 1 x Celestra
Cylons: 2 x BaseStar, 1 x Cerebus, 2 x Revenant, 2 x Archane

As you can tell, there are lots of flying toasters. In my previous attempts, I fled the first few turns before I swung my ships around to flak incoming torps. Then I had one or two turns to swat fighters before the remaining fighters and revenants were in gun range. I was being overwhelmed.

This attempt, I swung hard to AVOID the first round of torps, AND had fighters swat at the torps. Then I was able to run for another turn or two to increase the distance to the raiders. When the second round of torps arrived, I swung my battlestars the other way and again put vipers on defense. I ate almost one full salvo on rear armor, but I ended the turn with the fleet broadsides to incoming raiders. . .with the revenants a bit further behind. This gave me time to go turkeyshoot mode on fighters for a three turns, before the revenants got to gun range. By this point, I could focus fire the entire fleet on the revenants, and let the 6 x viperII deal with the remaining 1 raider squadron and 3 heavy raiders still on the board.

Note that viper management is essential at this stage. . . You can't let them run off and engage raiders without firesupport (if you want any left). You can't let them run off and swat torps either. . .they will end up in a raider scrum before you are ready for that.

Also. . .since the amount of munitions coming in is limited, I set the BS under missile attack to +1 posture instead of -7. This helps cut down the incoming swarm. . . and I may as well make that Celestra work for it's keep!

[USS Midway veteran]

It sounds like you've got a winning strategy, twosnark. Those Heracles may not have any missiles, but they are as good as battlestars in some situations. They provide equal firepower above and below. Their only weakness is their side armor, so make good use of their flak.

Be sure to keep your Vipers chasing specific targets. If you let them run wild they may attack a Revenant or a Cerastes and get chewed up. Your battlestar flak cover will also kill a lot of those Raiders as well as the missiles and torpedoes.

[Ice Man]

Originally posted by Sir Wagglepuss III:

Extra note: As far as packing Raptors is concerned, you only *need* 3x Vipers present in your fleet until Arachne start appearing, as the Talon is their only source of squadrons until then. That means you can comfortably keep reserve Raptors on the ships not housing the Vipers. If you have Berzerks in a fleet, prioritise them for housing Vipers as their 50 evasion they provide benefits Vipers much more than Raptors.

For example my "standard" loadout is as follows: If I'm running 6x Adamants, I'll run 3x Vipers, 3x Raptors. If I'm running 3x Adamants, 4x Berzerks, I'll take 4x Vipers (On Berzerks), 3x Raptors (On Adamants). If I see that 2750 FP number, then I swap out for full Raptors on the prep screen, and swap back next battle.

Once Arachne show up I kick it up to minimum 5x Vipers, then when Basestars start chiming in I go up to minimum 8x Vipers. Though by the time Basestars start getting involved, you shouldn't be far off having Atlas, which can bring Raptors or Assault Raptors in their support slot.

Raptors definitely seemed to do the trick at least the escort mission I was on and kept taking losses and a couple other gunboat armadas in random skirmishes. I've been just taking all raptors unless I have more than 4 squadron. Vipers are nice, well MkII anyhow, and miss them, but they seem ultimately unnecessary atm, even against up to 6 enemy squadrons the worst I've seen yet was a battlestar boarded and forced on defense for the rest of the match which sucks but better than being gunned down by 6 warships all zeroed in with max systems