Devs:Berzerk Carrier needs 2 viper wngs

[Snork]

1) It's a frame of a battlestar which carries two wings
2) It has no appreciable advantages over the adamant frigate. Half the armor values, no missile launchers. It should have plenty of space for more fighters.
--->
3) it visually obviously has considerably more space than an adamant
4) In another example of problems caused by the 7 ship limit (should be 10) there is no place for a large craft that has no advantages over an adamant
5) Given its missing missile tubes, the only balance explanation could be early access to two wings

This is a symptom of the 7 ship limit but it's also a symptom of fighter imbalance. With the current balance however, two wings makes far more sense than one. It's wildly inconsistent.

(I think many of us would be much happier if you'd increase the number of wings to a realistic one and proportionally decrease their stats, leaving all things equal but allowing us the pleasure of launching the proper number of viper wings that a battlestar can accomodate)

Please fix this as soon as possible, right now it's not cheaper enough to warrant a purchase over an adamant and I'm trying so hard to like this thing.

Another option would be to give the Berzerk (and all carrier types including Battlestars) some sort of carrier 'logistics' ability tied to the CiC that increases the 'coordination' of fighter wings, which in reality would consist of a small damage/accuracy bonus. But that requires much more work than changing the hangar count for the Berzerk to 2.

I usually don't ask so directly, but whether you'll change it, will consider it, or don't agree with me. Please respond devs. It'd help me out so much to know you care about this.

Or it needs to be far less points. As in less than a manticore, and given its Battlestar frame, that makes less sense to me. It should stay 650 and simply be given a second wing.

Sidenote, Unrelated: The effects of hitting unarmored portions are great, there should be a more distinguishable effect for hitting armor also, along with a scaling visual model for damaged sections on the ship.

Other forum members, PLEASE /metoo this if you agree. It seems to be common sense to me and we need to make clear that this is important.

[Colonel Clank]

I agree that a 10 ship limit would be nice,. However I really like the Berzerk, it's a more challenging ship to use but it adds more beefy guns to backup its fighters. The lack of missiles is a challenge, but it would be way too OP with an extra fighter squad.

I think the Berzerkers design is more intended to give you more firepower to back up your adamants which are woefully undergunned after the nerfs, it's a support ship not a full fighter carrier and shoud be treated as such. Overall you are sacrificing Armor and missile slots for Guns and a little bit more speed. While armor is important, the uprated guns can effectvely engage bigger ships from a reasonable range, while the whole ship/stack dodges up and down at max speed dodging the bigger less accurate enemy cannons. At the max distance that the Berzerker can engage from, most small cylon ships will be well out of range.

It'd be interesting to have twice as many air slots, but then fighters would need to be further nerfed in their ability to damage capitals, perhaps they could be given bombs or rockets for attacking capitals that have to be reloaded.

So far I have found that the Cylons require a numerical advantage of atleast 4:3 raiders to
Vipers to challenge the Colonials for fighter superiority (on Admiral), that being said the new Cylon picket ship does shred viper wings like tissue paper. However if you doubled Colonial fighter capacity, you'd be obligated to increase Cylon Raider capacity, and now you would require an overhaul of the strike craft command and control to manage so many wings, especially if you have 10 ships per fleet.

Currently in my new game i've really liked using the Berzerker along side my Adamants for the extra punch, while the paired adamant attempt to block incoming missiles and torpedoes. I,ve nearly stopped incuding Manticores in my fleets, prefering to fighters to missiles, sometimes just using 3 Berzerkers in my 2000 point fleets.

Anyway thats my 2 cents.

[TheMadTypist]

It's worth the 650 points as it currently stands.

The guns are significantly better than those on the Adamant. (Edit: mixed up Artemis and Adamant. Meant Adamant. 0.4 x 4 vs 1.0 x 5, where the Berserk has higher accuracy vs the higher refire on the adamant).
It can move farther per turn.

The evasion bonus that the hangar subsystem grants is more than twice what the Adamant has (50 vs 20) so that one squadron will take damage slower. You can see the value in the 'Posture' screen from the spacebar menu in game. It's even better than the bonus that the Atlas has, where the Atlas previously offered the best the Colonials had to offer.

To compare, the best that the Cylons have is the Cerberus, with a max evasion bonus of +30 when the hangar is fully overclocked. Colonials can't boost their hangars, as it isn't affected by the defensive stance anymore.

It's flimsy and lacks missiles, which warrants the -100 points, but it's still worth what you're paying for it. You just need enough meat to distract the enemy from it, and it becomes a cheap minotaur with a squadron.

[GrenadeMagnet6]

TheMadTypist, about this Evasion bonus: do Officers with the Hanger specialization help to increase this bonus? I didn't realize this bonus existed, or have any idea how it works.

[TheMadTypist]

Originally posted by GrenadeMagnet6:

TheMadTypist, about this Evasion bonus: do Officers with the Hanger specialization help to increase this bonus? I didn't realize this bonus existed, or have any idea how it works.

The middle line officer bonuses act like overclocking bonuses, pushing the system beyond 100%, so you should be able to see an increase in evasion.

I'm not sure the exact numbers or rules behind evasion, other than the Colonials have more of it, and if the hangar subsystem gets hacked it gets reduced until the system is repaired. My testing showed that higher evasion values makes fighters last longer in fighter v fighter duels, not sure how it helps with fire from bigger ships.

[Snork]

I just don't agree that the increased capacity amounts to doubling colonial fighter capacity.

I'm saying that the berzerker is basically the equivalent of a ranger except that it has a fighter specialty rather than missile launch. Two hangars just seems to fit the current symmetry.

And I'm not sure of what you say about the guns, do you have hard numbers that explains the damage difference between the adamant and the berzerker? Because I haven't seen them, and by feeling, I can only say it feels about average. Maybe larger damage per hit but less RoF than an adamant, so it feels even.

I just don't understand why a carrier, something specialized enough to be called a carrier, would be the equal in fighter capacity of a jack of all trades - something with guns, armor, missile tubes AND the same fighter capacity.

It simply doesn't make sense.

IF what you're saying is true, and my doubts of it are misplaced, then I believe it'd be better to remove or reduce the weaponry and add a second wing of fighters.

Also, the new cylon craft completely covers any balance fears of increasing its fighter capacity.

Balance is good, but if balance doesn't make sense, it probably isn't balanced and it definitely is questionable.

It would definitely not require any modifications to cylon ships, and it definitely does not amount to doubling colonial fighter capacity. Those are serious slippery slopes.

Also in discussions of whether or not this ship is "worth" the cost, I think it's important in this game, given the 7 ship limit, to compare it to others. in other games, I'd only worry about cost vs benefit, however in this game you need to compare it to every other ship because you only have 7 slots and price isn't always a number that matters.

Are there genuinely times when you're better off putting this ship in your lineup than simply using that slot on an adamant? Right now I'm not feeling it, I only use it in my single player fleets for pure variety, but if I was chained to objective reasoning, I wouldn't.

[FreedomFighter]

Originally posted by GrenadeMagnet6:

TheMadTypist, about this Evasion bonus: do Officers with the Hanger specialization help to increase this bonus? I didn't realize this bonus existed, or have any idea how it works.

Only CAG officer can increase bonus for Hangar subsystem. CIC doesn't affect Colonia's Hangar.

[Zuul]

The Berzerk is a pocket carrier, not a full carrier.

It’s 1 squadron is objectively superior to an Adamants squadron based on the hangar benefits. Meanwhile it’s guns are harder hitting...and more importantly, have a longer range, allowing it to remain behind a battlestar/adamant tanking line and still fire.

For a further icing on the cake, it is significantly faster than the Adamant. I’ve seen a good amount of play using them in the traditional fast flank manticore role, or simply dropping fighters and running....they have the speed to hold the distance.

When used as a firing line behind a tanking line...I have no idea how you think they feel the same as an Adamant. I’ve regularly seen 50-100% more damage from the Berzerks as compared to the Adamants with equal time on targets.

For fleet comps I’m now a huge proponent of 1 manticore, berzerk, Adamant at 2000. Losing the 1 munition slot is completely immaterial. The extra firepower from the berzerk more than makes up for it. It also finally gives me a good 5k fleet using the Artemis, 1 artemis, 2 Adamants, and 3 berzerks. Perfectly fits the 5k, gives you 7 squadrons, 3 munitions, a solid tanking line with flak support, and an idiotic amount of dakka dakka.

Edit: Just to add, a big risk to the Berzerk back line is concentrated missile barrages. Their armor is so thin that a large guided missile strike from multiple ships can gut them in 1 shot. The solution to this, especially with the 5k fleet, is to have the Artemis fire it’s flak to the inside. That puts your flak between the tanking line and your Berzerk firing line (who don’t care because they have no munitions of their own) to kill missiles, and leaves your munitions slots in the front row open to fire, and your Artemis still has use of its enemy facing broadside guns.

[Galactic Origins]

if berserk had 2 wings it would be an atlas. fine as it is. but I wont use it much since I'd rather have the missiles on the adamant for a 2k fleet.

[Leyline]

i foudn good use for them by keepign them out of initial contact, aftr the calon fleet starts swooping around and stops focusing its frontal arc, the berzerk can rush in and do damage. and it feeld like 2-3 manitocres per side battery.

[GrenadeMagnet6]

Originally posted by Leyline:

i foudn good use for them by keepign them out of initial contact, aftr the calon fleet starts swooping around and stops focusing its frontal arc, the berzerk can rush in and do damage. and it feeld like 2-3 manitocres per side battery.

Leyline: glad you are back. Looking forward to hopefully your new postings on the overall patch and impact of the new ships and the various balancing changes to the capital and fighter ships.

[Leyline]

I can tell you right away that i love the janus.

The throw weight of 3 torpedo tubes is just awesome and the ships have the hide to get into close range, also the guns work well as support fire.


Now, thee missile Reload is of course an issue if you wanna empty your tubes fast, for that the ranger is better. However the ranger makes a for a lousy tank and as such is not seen in my fleets. Because meh.

Once the ranger has run through its ammo, and it does it fast, its only left with its gunnery. While said gunnery is decent, its not something to rely on because the paper armor will not hold long.


So, janus for me, even over minotaur because minotaur has no role not better filled by an artemis.

Atlas and berzerk share very good values for viper evade. Berzerk also carries the emotional firepower of 5 manticores per side. (whiel that is not strictly true, it dam wel lfeels like a manticore with more useful stats. glassy but classy.)

also: artemis + janus = 2500.
that times 2 is 4 shisp at 5k.
You get 2 artmeis and 2 janus, and can spend the last 3 slots on 2 atlas and one minotaur to make it 8k.

You will have 8 squads of vipers, of which 4 will be better than the others because they come from the atlas and 2 battlestars to lay down the gunnery and fla, also a minotaur because she fits the point value (or just go take a zerker...) and fits in neatly.

The janus together wield 6 tubes, the artemis each one. So you have 8 launchers ready to lay down low any target in the game.

You ned not fear anything really. All your ships are well armored and you can deal with any threat.



If you like the jupiter you could switch out the minotaur and one atlas for 1 jupiter and 2 zerkers. Which leaves you at:
1 Jupiter, 2 artemis, 2 Janus, 1 Zerker
You will have 7 viper squads, which will not be as buff as the atlas wings.
But you will gain another battlestar, that can easily blot out any sort of incoming missile attack and tanks like a pro.
The Zerker is a good second row dps appliance.

Both fleets have their perks, the atlas fleet certainly trumps in terms of fighter pwoer, but on the other hand: having 3 Battlestars pound something down....


Or 1 Jupiter, 3 Janus, 1 minotaur and 2 atlas....

The point is: The Janus offers so much missile firepowr, its a bad ida NOT to use this ship in all your fleets.



Also, leveling your new commanders:

2K fleet:

2 Januses + daidalos. Fit sweeper squads on the daidalos. Deploy chaf in the region your janus will charge at the enemy WITH THEIR 6 NO COST NUKES.


Also: Mines work like PCM 'sin that you deploy them to an area. Then they arm for roughly half a round (EMP mines arm fastr though) and explode onc someone comes close.

Both ranger and janus could very well be spamming emp mines to RUIN the Cylons subsystems (and your own if you take the emp as well..).

The EMP mines arm FAST. So its a viable close quarters weapon. As it attacks a large area and deals a lot of subsystem damage at once to ALL systems.

Dead cylon sstems = duck hunt.

Also ,the explosive mine deals 40 damag a pop.
Thats 120 per janus every 4 turns....



Oh damn that janus. Love it.

[Veritas]

Nah, the zerker is really powerful as is. I think they should cost 750 fleet points and have their side armor buffed, though, but they have more raw DPS than the pre nerf adamants did

[Coyote]

it would be op with anything more.

[ZiggyDeath]

Berserker's main guns have a base range of 5500, outranging most guns.

Two Berserker's with full offensive stance can toast a Nemesis in a single turn.

Pretty much in all my campaign missions, the Zerkers are putting out twice the damage compared to my Manticores - not counting munitions or flight wing damage.

They're also usually the target of a missile barrage, which makes it easy to either assign defensive vipers to the task, or place them behind a battlestar, where they can pound targets with impunity.