Battlestars, too nerfed or dont know how to use them?

[Benzin]

I been reading a lot of complains about the artemis battlestar and how useless it is compared to the adamant. Now that i have my own, i sadly say that i agree completely. At the end of battles, even my manticores did a LOT more damage than them.

So i decided to take a close look at its weapons to see why (via right clicking it, selecting turrets, and clicking each gun).

I found that the artemis has guns on its broadsides, front, top & bottom.
broadsides are point defence, not really usefull for capital ships, wich leaves us with the front top & bottom batteries...
While the top & bottom ones can fire 360º (wich is great!), the stats of those weapons (and the front one as well) are just terrible compared to the adamant, or even the manticore!

From the weapon descriptions in the game
Artemis (front top & bottom)
Range: 2600 Edit: INCORRECT, Range is 5000
Accuracy: very low
Rate of fire: very low
Damage: 4 (2)

Adamant (broadsides)
Range: 5000
Accuracy: medium
Rate of fire: medium
Damage: 2

As you can see, even though the positioning and damage output of its main guns is great, they are so nerfed by low range, inaccuracy, and slow rate of fire, that they end up being nearly useless.
To make matters worse, trying to use them at point blank range (to get some results from its weapons), is usually a suicidal idea since it has only little more armor & hull points than the adamant.

As for the jupiter, since i dont have them yet, i started a new campaign to get access the the Athena in the 2nd (or was it 3rd) mission. An was sad to see that it suffers from exactly the same problems as the artemis. I dont think it will perform any better. :(

I find it just incredible that at the end of a battle, the cheapest, "worse" ship in the game (the manticore) can do 86 damage, and the flagship, the one that carries the name of the game, does 29???

I have tried to focus fire on capital ships only, configure its main guns to target capitals, close range engagements (R.I.P. my artemis), long range, etc. I just cant get them to perform even decently.

So i have a question for the developers:

Dear devs, is this an inbalance issue that you intend to fix in an upcoming patch (its cool if it is, we can wait)
or are we simply not understanding how you intended us to use the battlestars?

If in fact we are just not grasping how we are supposed to use them, can you please explain to us their intended way of use?

thanks!

[Palpat]

Same here. Didn't go to the Jupiter yet, but I've yet to loose a single Artemis. When you use them the way they are supposed to be (i.e. carefull positioning, flak, support from lesser ships...), they do their job and more and chew into Cylons' lines.

[DJM]

Just had my first opportunity to play a few rounds with an Artemis, and I haven't won a battle since!

I've been in fights with both Talon/Nemeses strike groups and Cerberus/Basestar comps. Stats aside, I'm finding battlestars fall to pieces simply because the AI targets them above all else, even suicidally - to a greater extent even than they do the Daidalos. Whatever its stats, I don't think there's a ship in the game that can survive focused fire to that degree, so I wonder if that's where some of the complaints about battlestars might be coming from? Just a thought, haven't seen that mentioned here previously. But so far, the only role I've found for my Artemis is to leave it way in the back and mourn the points that could've gone into a few more Adamants and Manticores. The Cylons will simply storm through any line just to land hits on it.

Can't remember what difficulty I'm playing on, so not sure if this is a factor. Just my two cents.

[windfinder21]

Yes the battlestars artilary does not hit a lot, but its side guns hit a ton (artimis and jupitur).

There are tatics you can use that maximiss the roles of the battlestars. Here are the rules I use for them, in my battles I rarely have my armor penetrated and the hull points hit.

1) Move All ships at the speed of the slowest Battlestar, exsept the scouting manticors if you have them.

yes the adamants can zip around MUCH quicker and could leave the battlestar in the dust OR the Battlestar would have to fly on boost thrust striaght at the enemy, which negates its advantages.

2) Do not fly your battle formation directly at the enemy, Fly towrds them 30 degrees to the right or left and constently drop your elevation so that your ships are always at a lower elevation then the emeny.

your ships that have top mount turrents (minotours and battlestars) can not shoot with them unless you are lower elevation. the way you maximis your damage is by having the most guns firing at all times. The battlestars side "point-defence" guns fire 8-10 times more often then the top guns, so even at there 0.5 damage it adds up quick as they are very accurt. so you need to be readdy to quickly go broadside to maximies your damage. Also your Flak field is only to the sides so to be of use your side has to be twards the enemy.

3) Once you are about 9k out; turn battle formation broadside on, move the Posture slider to full attack, and the entire formation focus fire the nearest enemy target marker or ship

You do not need to have Identify a ship before you can fire on it, so you can fire on targets that are outside your Dradis range. Sliding the Posture bar to the Attack side takes power from your tech bay, engennering, armory, and navigation subsystems and redirects it into your Fire control systems. This improves your guns range (have seen the cards read 7600 or 7800), Accuracy (can be +40-50% improvement), and munitions salvo size. the Focus fire command improves the range again (I have seen you ships mince the targeted ship and stop firing the rest of the turn as no other ship was in the now reduced range even though 4 others where on the field), And acording to one of the blurbs the Rate of fire and maybe the accuracy.

So now your guns fire more often, more accuratly, and from outside the enemys gun range. CIC fleet officers magnifiy this.

4) While engaging, move only as fast as the fastest minimien speed ship in your formation.

This will likely be your adamants. there is no reduction in combat effectiveness for just hitting and not killing a enemy ship in this game, so you need to keep your fleet together and mass the firepower to remove ships from play. each one that is gone in turn removes all there guns from firing back at you.

5) On your Battlestars only engage your Flak when you need it and not before.

The Flak command, turns the quick-firing point defence guns (and only them not the battlestar artiliry or heavy guns) on the side you call for a flak field off of engaging ships and in to putting up the flak field. if you read the earlier post those side guns can do major damage, so turning them off will cut your damage potential down by quite a bit. genrally missle carriers need to primary targets as they are the ones that make you turn on the flak field.

6) All the rest of the fleet needs to be stacked up on the side of the Battlestar opposite the direction the enemy will come.

This is incase they get targeted with missles they can drop down behind the Battlestar and its flak field and drag the missles to there death.

---------------------------------------------------

As a examble here is a Battle I had so you can see the princables in action.

The enemy started so that I was stacked on the wrong side so I had to change that as I moved to engage.

https://youtu.be/qq1WQWAZCWM

[DJM]

Messaggio originale di BlackLab_AnthonyS:

Battlestars are defined as a hybrid of carrier and warship, that act as the command centre of their fleet groups. In particular, battlestars excel at defensive tactics. They're not particularly great strike ships (although they can pack a punch when require) and they're not the tankiest either (although they can take a punch, too).

Instead, consider the battlestar as the ultimate force multiplier. It won't necessarily be at the top of your DPS list, but its presence extends the potential of your high impact ships, like the Ranger and Minotaur.

So I've played a few more battles, and have to reiterate what I've observed in my previous post and contrast it with the dev comments here. The AI doesn't treat battlestars like a ship with a dedicated role. They treat them as a Priority 1: Kill On Sight superweapon. All squadrons, all missiles, all guns are immediately turned on a battlestar even before IFF identification - it's almost like playing the Galactica in the series! Even a concerted group of fighters spawned from a carrier group can peel the armour from an Artemis in seconds without backup from their motherships! They'll happily ignore Vipers to do it, too. So is there something misaligned between the AI and the intended experience, here? I wouldn't dream of bringing a battlestar into close range with anything unless I wanted it to die.

[Birdog357]

I somehow had the misfortune for a single Artemis to go toe to toe with 3 Basestars and a flock of Cerberus. The fighters had stripped my broadside armor off in a single pass right through my flak screen. The frakking toasters just dove right in then got on my unengaged side and the survivors started pounding that side too. I did manage to take a Basestar and a Cerberus with me. Mighty fine ships, those Battlestars.

[Palpat]

I hold off 6 basestar with a Jupiter. I did go down, but took 4, almost 5 with me. Properly used, these ships are good.

[Wayfare]

Messaggio originale di Erlkind:

Even a concerted group of fighters spawned from a carrier group can peel the armour from an Artemis in seconds without fleet backup! They'll happily ignore Vipers to do it, too. So is there something misaligned between the AI and the intended experience, here? I wouldn't dream of bringing a battlestar into close range with anything unless I wanted it to die.

Maybe the intended experience is for our Battlestars to operate with a fleet, rather than on their own :)

[DJM]

Messaggio originale di Wayfare:

Messaggio originale di Erlkind:

Even a concerted group of fighters spawned from a carrier group can peel the armour from an Artemis in seconds without fleet backup! They'll happily ignore Vipers to do it, too. So is there something misaligned between the AI and the intended experience, here? I wouldn't dream of bringing a battlestar into close range with anything unless I wanted it to die.

Maybe the intended experience is for our Battlestars to operate with a fleet, rather than on their own :)

I mean the cylon squadrons had no back-up whatsoever :) My battlestar was plenty backed up - it was surrounded by other ships! When you're faced with a cylon carrier group, the only thing their squadrons need to do to cause significant damage is to last long enough - and they can last against Vipers and nearby ships set to squadron-focus for a good few turns. I feel an effective way of combating this would be for squadrons to be MUCH less effective against armor. By all means they should cripple a ship's hull, but it seems silly they can punch through an armor section alone in just a wave or two. Fighters should be used to fight each other and finish off crippled ships, not nearly take down a battlestar by their lonesome with a suicide rush. The fact they outrange a flak field only adds to the problem - they'll just shoot and turn before they hit the flak.

[Cybermortis]

Messaggio originale di Erlkind:

Messaggio originale di Wayfare:

Maybe the intended experience is for our Battlestars to operate with a fleet, rather than on their own :)

I mean the cylon squadrons had no back-up whatsoever :) My battlestar was plenty backed up - it was surrounded by other ships! When you're faced with a cylon carrier group, the only thing their squadrons need to do to cause significant damage is to last long enough - and they can last against Vipers and nearby ships set to squadron-focus for a good few turns. I feel an effective way of combating this would be for squadrons to be MUCH less effective against armor. By all means they should cripple a ship's hull, but it seems silly they can punch through an armor section alone in just a wave or two. Fighters should be used to fight each other and finish off crippled ships, not nearly take down a battlestar by their lonesome with a suicide rush. The fact they outrange a flak field only adds to the problem - they'll just shoot and turn before they hit the flak.

Fighters should be a threat to capital ships, it holds with the BSG universe and explains why fighters exist in the first place.

That said I agree that fighters should not be capable of engaging capital ships from outside the range of the flak guns; If nothing else this ignores the inability of Cylon Raiders to do this against Galactica 50 years later in the series.
Actually limiting the attack range of fighters that way would help reduce the effectiveness of fighters against capital ships as their strafing runs would be shorter. They could still wreck the big ships, but it would take longer.

Maybe compensate for this by giving fighters a small chance of bypassing armour to do reduced damage to the hull or systems directly. Which would fit with them being able to target and hit weak sections in the armour.

[Igorok]

Messaggio originale di windfinder21:

Yes the battlestars artilary does not hit a lot, but its side guns hit a ton (artimis and jupitur).

There are tatics you can use that maximiss the roles of the battlestars. Here are the rules I use for them, in my battles I rarely have my armor penetrated and the hull points hit.

1) Move All ships at the speed of the slowest Battlestar, exsept the scouting manticors if you have them.

yes the adamants can zip around MUCH quicker and could leave the battlestar in the dust OR the Battlestar would have to fly on boost thrust striaght at the enemy, which negates its advantages.

2) Do not fly your battle formation directly at the enemy, Fly towrds them 30 degrees to the right or left and constently drop your elevation so that your ships are always at a lower elevation then the emeny.

your ships that have top mount turrents (minotours and battlestars) can not shoot with them unless you are lower elevation. the way you maximis your damage is by having the most guns firing at all times. The battlestars side "point-defence" guns fire 8-10 times more often then the top guns, so even at there 0.5 damage it adds up quick as they are very accurt. so you need to be readdy to quickly go broadside to maximies your damage. Also your Flak field is only to the sides so to be of use your side has to be twards the enemy.

3) Once you are about 9k out; turn battle formation broadside on, move the Posture slider to full attack, and the entire formation focus fire the nearest enemy target marker or ship

You do not need to have Identify a ship before you can fire on it, so you can fire on targets that are outside your Dradis range. Sliding the Posture bar to the Attack side takes power from your tech bay, engennering, armory, and navigation subsystems and redirects it into your Fire control systems. This improves your guns range (have seen the cards read 7600 or 7800), Accuracy (can be +40-50% improvement), and munitions salvo size. the Focus fire command improves the range again (I have seen you ships mince the targeted ship and stop firing the rest of the turn as no other ship was in the now reduced range even though 4 others where on the field), And acording to one of the blurbs the Rate of fire and maybe the accuracy.

So now your guns fire more often, more accuratly, and from outside the enemys gun range. CIC fleet officers magnifiy this.

4) While engaging, move only as fast as the fastest minimien speed ship in your formation.

This will likely be your adamants. there is no reduction in combat effectiveness for just hitting and not killing a enemy ship in this game, so you need to keep your fleet together and mass the firepower to remove ships from play. each one that is gone in turn removes all there guns from firing back at you.

5) On your Battlestars only engage your Flak when you need it and not before.

The Flak command, turns the quick-firing point defence guns (and only them not the battlestar artiliry or heavy guns) on the side you call for a flak field off of engaging ships and in to putting up the flak field. if you read the earlier post those side guns can do major damage, so turning them off will cut your damage potential down by quite a bit. genrally missle carriers need to primary targets as they are the ones that make you turn on the flak field.

6) All the rest of the fleet needs to be stacked up on the side of the Battlestar opposite the direction the enemy will come.

This is incase they get targeted with missles they can drop down behind the Battlestar and its flak field and drag the missles to there death.

---------------------------------------------------

As a examble here is a Battle I had so you can see the princables in action.

The enemy started so that I was stacked on the wrong side so I had to change that as I moved to engage.

https://youtu.be/qq1WQWAZCWM

I use a similar tactic and I can confirm it works... too well. My formation usually consist of this:

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/860606864275022881/3AF834375BA83190863FC9E39DA96B8B98C65A25/

I put the battlestar in front because their front guns come quite handy to finish big ships like Cerberus and Battlestar and because this way, its more likely the cylon will focus their missiles in them. The Ranger is in the back so that it can use its missile/torpedo salvos no matter if the flaks are on or not. if the Cylon start focusing missiles on the adamants/minotaur, you just have to put them near the battlestars so they are protected by flak:

https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/860607050008593917/82BF5FC5C9B73CBFAF230C27706DEDF84925A4D9/

Then I focus my whole fleet guns in one or two targets and their missiles/torpedoes in another one.

The main problem of this tactic is that, at least in the normal difficulty campaign, it always works so the game becomes boring. I have used it since I unlocked the adamant, then I kept adding the rest of the ships to the formation as they became available. As result, I only lost a single manticore and two rangers in my entire campaign. By the way, maneuvering with such a thight formation is very unconfortable as you cant group the ships of a stack. i still have to try it with the 1.05 patch, but my guess is that its still OP against AI.

Some examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9cNRJGkk_U

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jt8Yk5uzsoQ

[arvcran]

Artemis and Jupiter class ships top Artillery guns fire straight up and even behind.

Here is a screenshot: (seeing is believing)

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2195096169

[Sir Wagglepuss III]

This thread is three years old, c'mon man.

[arvcran]

Messaggio originale di Sir Wagglepuss III:

This thread is three years old, c'mon man.

Is this a no-no? I always check for existing topics before posting a new thread ... is this bad policy?

It is a very good thread in any case!

[Sir Wagglepuss III]

Thread necro is usually a no-no. Looking for recent topics is fine, but digging out years old threads generally isn't.

The majority of the info in this thread is now outdated and irrelevant, which is what folks are going to be seeing when they open up this thread.

[arvcran]

Ah ... sorry ... can you lock the thread from further replies?

necro? dormant? idle?

Can you elaborate as to what is considered recent?

I play Distant Worlds, a 2011 game and I consider it recent :-D ... tells you how old I am ;-).

Besides if they pay attention the dates are on the posts ... folks can tell ... surely?

Anyhow I'll post new threads from now on.