Bloodlines 2 Is A Pathetic Insult To The Original | Vampire: The Masquerade Extended Gameplay

[FreedomInTruth]

https://youtu.be/nUBwxme0tVo

[Clever Name]

GrandMajora lähetti viestin:

Outside of the Path of Blood, the Assamites didn't just diablerize people to increase their power, they did it to punish them for going too far with abusing mortals or defying the traditions.

Right, but if you're not playing a Haqimite then there's no reason to diablerize inferior vampires. You gain nothing.

[Gesuma]

In the game play reveal, Phyre ended up feeding on the vampire Willem, so I would assume it would be similar in combat vs vampires... we starting feeding on a vampire (getting a dot or whatever it is called for all abilities) and then we are pushed off the vampire and the fight continues.

[Anvos]

Clever Name lähetti viestin:

GrandMajora lähetti viestin:

Outside of the Path of Blood, the Assamites didn't just diablerize people to increase their power, they did it to punish them for going too far with abusing mortals or defying the traditions.

Right, but if you're not playing a Haqimite then there's no reason to diablerize inferior vampires. You gain nothing.

Not entirely as you can still learn disciplines that way and the way diablerie is weighted its mechanically easier to gain xp from diablerie if you diablerize somebody higher generation and lower BP than you.

Plus there is always the animosity answer of hating somebody so much you want to remove them from existence.

[Anvos]

That logic only works if the kindred is fatalist and assumes being a kindred screws your soul from the get go and that the curse isn't weighted into the judgement.

[Clever Name]

Anvos lähetti viestin:

Clever Name lähetti viestin:

Right, but if you're not playing a Haqimite then there's no reason to diablerize inferior vampires. You gain nothing.

Not entirely as you can still learn disciplines that way and the way diablerie is weighted its mechanically easier to gain xp from diablerie if you diablerize somebody higher generation and lower BP than you.

Yeah, but you lose humanity every single time. If you lose the roll, your humanity could plummet several points.

You only get bonus discipline XP based on the number of successes you rolled. Let's say you're at BP 4 and have 5 humanity (after losing 1), so you get a dice pool of 9 as the diablerist. You'll average 5 successes on that pool. That's 5 XP per success, so 25 XP you could put towards disciplines. Can't put it towards raising BP, if your victim is lower or equal in BP.

So you're trading 1 or more humanity for a variable amount of XP. Overall I consider that a net loss, since you're going to get the XP eventually anyway. Whereas humanity is not that easy to regain.

Each subsequent diablerie attempt will be made with a smaller dice pool, because of automatic humanity loss. Therefore one character could only safely attempt around 3 diableries of inferior vampires, solely to gain discipline XP. Assuming you won each contest and started at humanity 6, you'd be down to humanity 3, and would've gained maybe 75 XP in the process. Your generation wouldn't be lowered and your BP wouldn't be raised. You're only accelerating XP gain, and only for the disciplines known by whoever you diablerized.

And really, even picking on weaker vampires doesn't make your odds of success that great. If your victim happens to have high resolve (say 4 dots), they could still have a dice pool of 5 or 6 (resolve + BP) to resist the diablerie takeover. The only way it's almost guaranteed success is if you'd restrict your predation to victims with 1-2 dots in resolve AND low BP.

[Anvos]

Diablerie isn't supposed to be something you're constantly doing, and raising BP is such a double edged sword, especially if the kindred is below a V5 player generation already. Raising BP only seems like a default good, to rush up, since the player generations have BPs in the range of lose your safety net and having to act like a kindred, rather than true disadvantages. Not to mention the lore implies there are multiple ways to mitigate the humanity loss if a kindred actually does become addicted to diablerie or seek to do it repeatedly.

Further when your punching down the ladder with diablerie the odds of you losing additional humanity are minuscule. Say you've got an 8th gen anncillae vs a 10th neonate your looking at a pool of 5 + 3 = 8 vs a pool of at best 3/4 + 1 = 4/5, but it could easily be a pool of 2/3 if Resolve was one of their weaker stats. To lose additional humanity you're looking at the ancillae needing to roll below half while the neonate needs improbable all successes on top of the ancillae having bad luck. Reverse that situation however and the neonate is near guaranteed to lose additional humanity and be stuck with the minimum of 5 xp and unlocking the victim's disciplines to learn. Then add in that diablerie is about the only way to learn Blood Sorcery without a trainer, and disciplines like Protean and Oblivion are hard to find somebody willing to part with the knowledge.

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Acquiring lots of xp isn't really considered an easy feat, given the default assumes a kindred ends up averaging out to about 1 xp per year once they've reached older age brackets. Nor are you considering the opportunity cost of not having that xp. Meanwhile if a kindred really wants to humanity can be earned without spending xp, even if its generally something that takes a massive sacrifice of personal ambition or likely committing to something over a long period.

[Anvos]

GrandMajora lähetti viestin:

I mean, we know for a fact that the Christian God exists within the setting, and that vampirism was specifically levied upon Caine as a form of punishment. We also know that God is a control freak, who over reacts and inflicts gratuitous punishment upon his creations for having the audacity to tell him 'No' when he gives them orders.

God didn't flood the world because of humanity's wickedness. He did it to spite Caine, because Caine tried to defy his punishment and reintegrate himself with human society. When God saw that vampires and humans were actually getting along with each other, he decided to wipe the slate clean and start over.

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In 5th edition, Thinbloods have the ability to become human again, if they kill their own sires. But if Golconda allows a vampire to become human again, then this chance at salvation doesn't seem nearly as impressive.

Again the interpretation relies on a fatalistic view point that also assumes that God is pointlessly vindictive in his punishment, rather than punishing with a purpose in mind. Given demons show God is capable of rendering something into non-existence, when he's completely done with believing a creation serves a purpose, it implies there is greater meaning to how he handled Caine.

If you want to ascribe a higher purpose to kindred it isn't that hard to see that the Curse of Caine was a means of God forcing humanity to have a crash course on learning to responsibly use the Lore of Death, which Caine had unleashed, or to contain part of its most destructive aspects from wider humanity, by means of creating a subset of humanity that couldn't ignore the negative consequences of its misuse. In such a case it would likely put actions taken as a kindred weighted differently than those when you were living, and perhaps that is why a kindred loses part of their soul, so there is effectively a reset save state.

Then there is also the decent argument that Caine mightn't be a kindred and that kindred are actually a byproduct of Caine and/or Lillith trying to subvert their individual curses and cheat God, which would mean kindred curse isn't one truly from God, but the hubris of Caine and/or Lillith.

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Your thinblood answer is a gross oversimplification, where destroying your sire is only part of the process if a thinblood wants to return to being a human. Not to mention if you ascribe to kindred are more than mystical nonsense that can't be explained it isn't that hard to rationalize how there can be more than one cure.

The thinblood method could very well rely on killing your sire, due to the very nature of how weak their vitae is, thus meaning they can shock their system into the vitae losing coherency over regular blood and restarting biological processes, basically using the inherent connection down bloodlines in reverse. Basically this would make the thinblood solution the brute force solution, rather than the intended way.

[Clever Name]

GrandMajora lähetti viestin:

Clever Name lähetti viestin:

Yeah, but you lose humanity every single time. If you lose the roll, your humanity could plummet several points.

Loss of Humanity is only a problem if you're following the Path of Humanity.

Sabbat habitually perform the deed, and most of them don't seem to be at risk of losing control. Either to the Beast, or to any unwanted hijackers that might put up a fight.

The Path of Blood, created by the Assamites, also demands that one diablerizes their enemies after defeating them.

This is V5 and paths don't exist. Sabbat are unplayable. Humanity is the only thing that matters in the context of this discussion, especially how it might tangentially apply to how Phyre got so much discipline XP.

Anvos lähetti viestin:

Further when your punching down the ladder with diablerie the odds of you losing additional humanity are minuscule. Say you've got an 8th gen anncillae vs a 10th neonate your looking at a pool of 5 + 3 = 8 vs a pool of at best 3/4 + 1 = 4/5, but it could easily be a pool of 2/3 if Resolve was one of their weaker stats.

Yeah, 'if' resolve is one of their weaker stats. That's a big 'if,' and as far as I know, there aren't many ways as a player to ascertain a target NPC's specific attribute levels. Oblivion + Auspex is the only way I know of.

Most characters I make have a resolve of 3-4 to start. If it's a character whose clan disciplines tie into resolve, then it's a given I start at 4. It's generally a bad idea to make a character with low resolve or composure, since having low willpower hurts all characters equally, even if you care more about pure combat than anything else. If you're into social stuff, then composure and resolve are also must-have stats.

Anvos lähetti viestin:

Acquiring lots of xp isn't really considered an easy feat, given the default assumes a kindred ends up averaging out to about 1 xp per year once they've reached older age brackets. Nor are you considering the opportunity cost of not having that xp. Meanwhile if a kindred really wants to humanity can be earned without spending xp, even if its generally something that takes a massive sacrifice of personal ambition or likely committing to something over a long period.

1 XP per year is what NPCs have, not played characters. As a player character we should be getting a couple dozen XP per year, even with infrequent play.

As for getting humanity back, no, in V5 it cannot be purchased with XP. The only way to gain humanity is dedicated roleplay. It would appear to be extreme metagaming to casually diablerize very weak fledglings solely for the XP gain, only to thereafter act like a literal saint to get back the lost humanity. It makes no sense for a character to behave that way.

[Clever Name]

GrandMajora lähetti viestin:

No, the Paths do exist. They were introduced in the Sabbat book, but since Sabbat are unplayable, the Paths are likewise reserved for being antagonist exclusive.

This is a pointless argument like so many here.

Paths do not functionally exist. Therefore they are meaningless. The official rules only give us values in the context of humanity, anything else will be house rules.

The facts as they stand: diablerie is way too much risk for way too little reward in V5. The system is clearly designed to discourage, not encourage, diablerie. If they wanted to make it more rewarding or less risky, they could have; but they didn't. Ergo, it's undesirable in most situations.

[Anvos]

Clever Name lähetti viestin:

Yeah, 'if' resolve is one of their weaker stats. That's a big 'if,' and as far as I know, there aren't many ways as a player to ascertain a target NPC's specific attribute levels. Oblivion + Auspex is the only way I know of.

Most characters I make have a resolve of 3-4 to start. If it's a character whose clan disciplines tie into resolve, then it's a given I start at 4. It's generally a bad idea to make a character with low resolve or composure, since having low willpower hurts all characters equally, even if you care more about pure combat than anything else. If you're into social stuff, then composure and resolve are also must-have stats.

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1 XP per year is what NPCs have, not played characters. As a player character we should be getting a couple dozen XP per year, even with infrequent play.

As for getting humanity back, no, in V5 it cannot be purchased with XP. The only way to gain humanity is dedicated roleplay. It would appear to be extreme metagaming to casually diablerize very weak fledglings solely for the XP gain, only to thereafter act like a literal saint to get back the lost humanity. It makes no sense for a character to behave that way.

The average kindred in WoD isn't min-maxed, so just because its mechanically something you may do when making a character doesn't have much relevance. Likewise playing the game assumes your playing in one of those periods of intense activity, so that isn't a disproof of anything, let alone xp progression falls under the highly esoteric for a kindred to judge in game.

Most primary stats it shouldn't be to hard to judge if somebody has a 4/5 in it, with casual observation, given 4 is the tier you're in the top proficiency in something and 5 is a you're literally the top 1% human maximum.

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Your final comment falls under the concept of individuals are complex and its easy to justify removing an individual without being a generally bad person, and would generally fall under the if I'm already going to murder this kindred why not get something out of it besides their death. It also just so happens that Losambara, Hecata, Ministry, and Tzimitzsce are four of the easiest clans to convince other kindred to look the other way about.

[Yojimbo]

This game isn't going to have any depth to the mechanics or lore so arguing over this stuff is just pissing in the wind, lads.

[Anvos]

Its more interesting than ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on a game just to ♥♥♥♥ on it, and the OP's video is a youtuber whose basically made a series of these type of videos, that show he's unreasonably biased negative, uses forumers and redditors as evidence, and rather ignores things we've already been told, because they don't fit his narrative.

Not to mention the concept of diablerie is very relevant to this game for obvious Fabien reasons.

[Clever Name]

Anvos lähetti viestin:

Your final comment falls under the concept of individuals are complex and its easy to justify removing an individual without being a generally bad person, and would generally fall under the if I'm already going to murder this kindred why not get something out of it besides their death. It also just so happens that Losambara, Hecata, Ministry, and Tzimitzsce are four of the easiest clans to convince other kindred to look the other way about.

There's nothing remotely 'complex' about eating somebody's soul to gain a fraction of their power. It's not a moral grey area. Killing them because they might kill others, threaten the masquerade, etc, is something else. Eating their soul is unnecessary and that's why it comes with an automatic humanity loss. There's no way to spin it, no fake philosophical reasoning to justify it.

Being pragmatic and thinking, 'well, I may as well gain something from killing someone' would put you at a humanity level around 3-4. You're like a killer-for-hire if you were mortal. 'Goodness' and that mentality cannot coexist.

I find it funny that traditional morality systems in RPGs are ridiculed as being antiquated, when in reality everybody just wants to do whatever the ♥♥♥♥ they want with no repercussions.

'Well, I just ate somebody's soul, but I'm still generally a good person. I mean, his soul was just going to go to waste anyway. So I ate it.'

[Clever Name]

GrandMajora lähetti viestin:

Clever Name lähetti viestin:

I find it funny that traditional morality systems in RPGs are ridiculed as being antiquated, when in reality everybody just wants to do whatever the ♥♥♥♥ they want with no repercussions.

'Well, I just ate somebody's soul, but I'm still generally a good person. I mean, his soul was just going to go to waste anyway. So I ate it.'

Yeah, that's the premise to an escapist power fantasy.

No, it's not. Escapism isn't about automatically doing bad ♥♥♥♥ that you're too weak or cowardly or inhibited to do in real life. Escapism can be anything, good or bad.

Vampire the Masquerade, specifically, is about fighting to maintain your humanity while also being an undead monster. The dramatic juxtaposition of opposing forces that are inimical to each other. That's the core experience. That's what the core rules are built around. Playing an elder who's adopted a path (back in V20) or sunk to humanity 2, is not the 'normal' experience.

GrandMajora lähetti viestin:

Also, killing somebody who's been around for a very, very long time and just letting their knowledge and skills die with them is a waste. If you can absorb even a fraction of that person's experiences and put them to better use, then that seems like a noble act. Not a heinous one.

That is, frankly, ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ rationalization.

[Yojimbo]

Anvos lähetti viestin:

Its more interesting than ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ on a game just to ♥♥♥♥ on it, and the OP's video is a youtuber whose basically made a series of these type of videos, that show he's unreasonably biased negative, uses forumers and redditors as evidence, and rather ignores things we've already been told, because they don't fit his narrative.

Not to mention the concept of diablerie is very relevant to this game for obvious Fabien reasons.

Chill bro. You're getting way too worked up for a game where the devs care far less about the IP than you do.