do you think they're going to delay 2024 to 2025?

[Coffee Break Hero]

Are we living in early access 2024?

[Amadeo]

"Allow me to cast a shadow of doubt. Who exactly didn't know anything about the fanbase or the IP? Jason Carl? Outstar? Justin Achilli? Khaldoun Khelil? All of these people were employed on the Paradox side." (Amadeo)

"As if I know who those people are or what goes on in their board room. I don't work for Paradox nor much care for their products. Other then the first Cities, which I barely touched, I don't think I've ever bought any of their games. I am merely relaying what I have been told by reliable people who worked on on the original Bloodlines 2. Whether you believe me or not doesn't matter to me one iota. It's not like I'[m going to risk screwing anyone's livelihood just to satisfy some guy on the internet." (Triple G)

Jason Carl is a professional writer/GM who has been running VtM games since the 90's. Outstar had been one of the most visible, as well as most ardent, Bloodlines fans for more than a decade before she was hired by Paradox. Justin Achilli has been writing VtM books (and WoD in general) since 1995; if you have any clan books or rulebooks from the oWoD days, take a look at them -- his name is probably on the cover somewhere. Khaldoun Khelil has been writing for White Wolf since 2002; if you have Cairo by Night or any of the old Mummy books, again, look at the cover.

The point is, most of those people are more familiar with the needs of the fan base and/or the IP itself than both of us combined. Some of them literally made that IP. They were all employed -- and some of them continue to be employed -- on the Paradox side of development. Therefore, the notion that they don't know much about the IP or its fans is outright ridiculous.

In my professional experience, people who work "on the floor" often have little knowledge of what's going on behind the closed doors of conference rooms. They do have lots of theories, but they rarely know exactly why someone got fired, why some partnership ended, or why the development of a certain product was not going the way it was supposed to go. So, I always take corporate gossip with a grain of salt.

P.S.: automatic quotation or manual quote tags didn't work for some reason, so I had to re-format the text.

[Triple G]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Clever Name:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

Paradox is a risk-adverse company and did not like the macabre storytelling, hyper violence or general nastiness. They are also scared of provoking negative backlash by doing anything not "politically correct", which is why Malkavians are not in this new version... because Paradox is afraid to go anywhere near mental illness. It's also because this new version is being made on the cheap and they don't want to spend money on a malleable script, which is why Nosferatu are excluded as well. Including them would require much more writing and voice recording.

The problem with your premise is that Paradox games aren't completely free of controversy, or the potential thereof.

Hearts of Iron and Crusader Kings both have elements that could be considered objectionable, depending on the observer.

If Paradox wanted to be 100% safe, they'd avoid actual history and just work with PG-13 fantasy.

Also, TCR's version of the game features head crushing and karate-chop beheading in slow-mo. It's not totally devoid of graphic violence.

To assume that Paradox wanted to make WoD into some Twilight garbage, i.e, safe and bland, we'd have to ask why they ever agreed to have Mitsoda do BL2 in the first place. Then we'd have to ask why they didn't figure out the game was too edgy or dark or whatever, earlier than they did. Then we'd have to ask why the entire HSL game was gutted instead of just being heavily edited to remove the most potentially offensive parts.

At each juncture, the efficacy of 'Paradox = stupid' as an explanation gets less and less plausible.

Paradox has handled the IP poorly, yes. But I still doubt everything happened exactly the way you're describing, for exactly the same reasons. It just doesn't add up to me.

Work on your reading comprehension. I never said anything about the books which Paradox doesn't even write, maintain or even care about unless it gives them negative publicity. There is a big difference between a mass marketed media product and a tiny niche RPG book.

I didn't say they had a problem with run of the mill video game violence, I said they had a problem with the hyper violence and nastiness... in other words the story and some elements were too gruesome. I also said they had fears about the portrayal of mental illness via the Malkavians.

You can't just edit out vast amounts of content from a game, and if you knew anything about programming you'd be aware how silly you sound.

I never said Paradox was stupid, they are a corporation that thinks like a typical soulless corporation. Don't look for logic in everything they do and I never claimed to have all the answers.

If you wanna fanboy defend this company that's your sad prerogative, but at least read and respond to what people actually said.

[Triple G]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Amadeo:

"Allow me to cast a shadow of doubt. Who exactly didn't know anything about the fanbase or the IP? Jason Carl? Outstar? Justin Achilli? Khaldoun Khelil? All of these people were employed on the Paradox side." (Amadeo)

"As if I know who those people are or what goes on in their board room. I don't work for Paradox nor much care for their products. Other then the first Cities, which I barely touched, I don't think I've ever bought any of their games. I am merely relaying what I have been told by reliable people who worked on on the original Bloodlines 2. Whether you believe me or not doesn't matter to me one iota. It's not like I'[m going to risk screwing anyone's livelihood just to satisfy some guy on the internet." (Triple G)

Jason Carl is a professional writer/GM who has been running VtM games since the 90's. Outstar had been one of the most visible, as well as most ardent, Bloodlines fans for more than a decade before she was hired by Paradox. Justin Achilli has been writing VtM books (and WoD in general) since 1995; if you have any clan books or rulebooks from the oWoD days, take a look at them -- his name is probably on the cover somewhere. Khaldoun Khelil has been writing for White Wolf since 2002; if you have Cairo by Night or any of the old Mummy books, again, look at the cover.

The point is, most of those people are more familiar with the needs of the fan base and/or the IP itself than both of us combined. Some of them literally made that IP. They were all employed -- and some of them continue to be employed -- on the Paradox side of development. Therefore, the notion that they don't know much about the IP or its fans is outright ridiculous.

In my professional experience, people who work "on the floor" often have little knowledge of what's going on behind the closed doors of conference rooms. They do have lots of theories, but they rarely know exactly why someone got fired, why some partnership ended, or why the development of a certain product was not going the way it was supposed to go. So, I always take corporate gossip with a grain of salt.

P.S.: automatic quotation or manual quote tags didn't work for some reason, so I had to re-format the text.

If you had bothered to read what is said you'll note I specifically talked about the corporate side of Paradox, who I assure you don't give a rats behind about WoD or anything other then their balance sheet. Employees do not have the authority to just do whatever they want.

[Clever Name]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

Work on your reading comprehension. I never said anything about the books which Paradox doesn't even write, maintain or even care about unless it gives them negative publicity. There is a big difference between a mass marketed media product and a tiny niche RPG book.

I'm objecting to the flaws in your argument. It's not the same as fanboying. I object to baseless, stupid arguments in general. I'm not defending anything, as much as I'm attacking stupidity.

Even your counterargument I quoted is badly flawed.

Paradox doesn't write the WoD books? Yeah, it does write them. It also doesn't write the BL2 video game. Your statement is a non sequitur.

Your previous point was that Paradox is risk-averse (by the way, it's not 'risk-adverse'; 'adverse' is a negative condition, 'averse' is avoidance. If you insult my reading comprehension, I'm much more inclined to notice your lack of it), but yet they allow their name to be placed on books with human sacrifice, necrophilia, and black magic. How could BL2 be more controversial than that? Oh, it doesn't matter because it's a book? You are aware that in the internet outrage era, anything can be taken from anywhere and magnified a thousandfold, right? Doesn't matter what the medium is.

Paradox sacked the original White Wolf writing team specifically because they caused controversy in the 'tiny niche RPG books'. But it wasn't about graphic sex and violence; it was because real-world incidents were used as story fodder. Something White Wolf had done in the past, but it doesn't fly now with hyper-sensitive no-life morons on patrol.

The point is that if Paradox sacked Mitsoda and HSL over the content--not quality--of BL2, it must've been over something very specific and real-world related.

And if it was something specific, then yes, it could've been edited out.

In your own words, 'macabre storytelling, hyper violence or general nastiness' is par for the course. That is not what they objected to, because there's no history of them doing so.

[warb]

Paradox owned 33% of HSL at that time. Mitsoda getting pushed out first I think indicates that issue was taken with content. A new creative director was appointed. The forced late management changes ultimately blew up the whole project.

TCR's version exists because a lot of pre-orders were sold. They were never in to finish the HSL game.

I'm still much more interested in the HSL game. Hope more of it leaks.

Paradox have been doing this a lot in recent years. Messing up games, or finding out their games 'aren't going to meet their expectations' very late in the day.

[Triple G]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Clever Name:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

Work on your reading comprehension. I never said anything about the books which Paradox doesn't even write, maintain or even care about unless it gives them negative publicity. There is a big difference between a mass marketed media product and a tiny niche RPG book.

I'm objecting to the flaws in your argument. It's not the same as fanboying. I object to baseless, stupid arguments in general. I'm not defending anything, as much as I'm attacking stupidity.

Even your counterargument I quoted is badly flawed.

Paradox doesn't write the WoD books? Yeah, it does write them. It also doesn't write the BL2 video game. Your statement is a non sequitur.

Your previous point was that Paradox is risk-averse (by the way, it's not 'risk-adverse'; 'adverse' is a negative condition, 'averse' is avoidance. If you insult my reading comprehension, I'm much more inclined to notice your lack of it), but yet they allow their name to be placed on books with human sacrifice, necrophilia, and black magic. How could BL2 be more controversial than that? Oh, it doesn't matter because it's a book? You are aware that in the internet outrage era, anything can be taken from anywhere and magnified a thousandfold, right? Doesn't matter what the medium is.

Paradox sacked the original White Wolf writing team specifically because they caused controversy in the 'tiny niche RPG books'. But it wasn't about graphic sex and violence; it was because real-world incidents were used as story fodder. Something White Wolf had done in the past, but it doesn't fly now with hyper-sensitive no-life morons on patrol.

The point is that if Paradox sacked Mitsoda and HSL over the content--not quality--of BL2, it must've been over something very specific and real-world related.

And if it was something specific, then yes, it could've been edited out.

In your own words, 'macabre storytelling, hyper violence or general nastiness' is par for the course. That is not what they objected to, because there's no history of them doing so.

Maybe do a bit of a Google before insulting people and calling them stupid, thereby exposing yourself as such. Paradox owns the WoD IP but Renegade Game Studios writes and handles all the creative. Paradox just yay's or nay's their creative decisions. You don't work in entertainment and it's not my problem that you can't wrap your head around the illogical and inconsistent behaviour of corporations. They don't censor because they have some philosophical or moral opposition to anything, it's because it's their flipping money. They don't care about run of the mill sex or violence because no one else does, they care about anything that could get them protested or affect their reputation in a way that will negatively affect their bottom line. If people in large numbers started protesting the nosferatu because they felt it was shaming ugly people I promise you they'd be gone immediately with an apology for their insensitivity. In addition if they thought including ♥♥♥♥'s would double their sales they'd be put in immediately... because corporations are amoral and only care about their balance sheet. Corporations are reactive, not pro-active and only know how to try and put out fires, anticipating negativity is not something they're strong at.


They don't see tiny cult RPG books the same way and pay far less attention because it's not a money maker for them. It's like having a business where your main product makes a thousand dollars a day and your side business makes one dollar a day, to put it in easier to digest numbers. I never said to look for consistency or logic at every turn did I? I also never claimed I had every single answer, I only know what I was told.

The fact that you think you can just edit things out of sophisticated software as easily as cutting a page out of a book shows you have no freakin' clue what you're talking about. Any coder on this forum will back this up. The reason why you lack reading comprehension is because you're inserting meanings I never said and assuming points I never made, because you like to argue and don't recognise you aren't intelligent enough to be good at it.

Regardless I am done responding to you. I don't care if you believe me or not and anyone is free to think as they wish. I merely relayed what I had been told by reliable sources and never claimed to either have total information or that everything was correct.

[Triple G]

Ursprungligen skrivet av warb:

Paradox owned 33% of HSL at that time. Mitsoda getting pushed out first I think indicates that issue was taken with content. A new creative director was appointed. The forced late management changes ultimately blew up the whole project.

TCR's version exists because a lot of pre-orders were sold. They were never in to finish the HSL game.

I'm still much more interested in the HSL game. Hope more of it leaks.

Paradox have been doing this a lot in recent years. Messing up games, or finding out their games 'aren't going to meet their expectations' very late in the day.

It absolutely was the content in his case. Corporations also love to blame writers and see them as disposable. This is true in most entertainment mediums.

[Clever Name]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

Maybe do a bit of a Google before insulting people and calling them stupid, thereby exposing yourself as such. Paradox owns the WoD IP but Renegade Game Studios writes and handles all the creative. Paradox just yay's or nay's their creative decisions.

I wasn't calling you stupid, I was calling your argument stupid. Smart people can make dumb arguments, and dumb people can make sensible arguments. It's a matter of perspective more than raw intellect.

I originally stated that Paradox doesn't write either the RPG books or the video games, but then I edited my statement to its present form; because Paradox absorbed the remains of White Wolf and the writers are thus answerable directly to Paradox. The writers are not listed as part of Renegade in the books. They're under the Paradox heading.

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

In addition if they thought including ♥♥♥♥'s would double their sales they'd be put in immediately...

Wrong. Brujah were originally said to have skinheads and neo-♥♥♥♥♥ in their ranks, as stated by White Wolf before they were purged. The subsequent Paradox material doesn't include ♥♥♥♥♥.

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

I merely relayed what I had been told by reliable sources and never claimed to either have total information or that everything was correct.

Well, what you relayed wasn't remotely useful or illustrative.

At this point, the theory that Paradox fired Mitsoda and HSL over microtransactions is a better bet than your angle.

[$CRWD]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Clever Name:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

In addition if they thought including ♥♥♥♥'s would double their sales they'd be put in immediately...

Wrong. Brujah were originally said to have skinheads and neo-♥♥♥♥♥ in their ranks, as stated by White Wolf before they were purged. The subsequent Paradox material doesn't include ♥♥♥♥♥.

Clever is correct here. But this notion overall is what makes gamedev a difficult dilemma.

I usually am in the minority when I say that I am never onboard with the PC censorship of media, similar to what happened to White Wolf after that Dice Dog article in 2018. There's no issue with the existence of bigotry, or degenerate perversions in fiction. The entire point of fiction is that one has the freedom to confront these topics and make statements about them in a low consequence environment.

There's also the added aspect of how our own support for a space -- a product -- that allows for bigotry can contribute to real harm, or harmful causes in the world, because our support is a financial endorsement of those with bigoted ideas that do not limit themselves to expression.

Roleplay is a space where anyone, of any disposition, has the right to exist. As someone that stands on the principle of free speech, so long as it isn't a direct threat or call to violence, even bigoted players should have spaces to express themselves freely.

But what if it extends to bigoted WoD developers, like Mark Rein Hagen? There's a difference between creating such spaces as a matter of principle, which leaves one open to being harassed and attacked by the world for being ♥♥♥♥, crypto-fascist, seemingly far-right, etc., and creating such spaces because one is genuinely bigoted and involved in harmful causes -- that often are not stated/declared publicly.

[Triple G]

Ursprungligen skrivet av $CRWD:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Clever Name:

Wrong. Brujah were originally said to have skinheads and neo-♥♥♥♥♥ in their ranks, as stated by White Wolf before they were purged. The subsequent Paradox material doesn't include ♥♥♥♥♥.

Clever is correct here. But this notion overall is what makes gamedev a difficult dilemma.

I usually am in the minority when I say that I am never onboard with the PC censorship of media, similar to what happened to White Wolf after that Dice Dog article in 2018. There's no issue with the existence of bigotry, or degenerate perversions in fiction. The entire point of fiction is that one has the freedom to confront these topics and make statements about them in a low consequence environment.

There's also the added aspect of how our own support for a space -- a product -- that allows for bigotry can contribute to real harm, or harmful causes in the world, because our support is a financial endorsement of those with bigoted ideas that do not limit themselves to expression.

Roleplay is a space where anyone, of any disposition, has the right to exist. As someone that stands on the principle of free speech, so long as it isn't a direct threat or call to violence, even bigoted players should have spaces to express themselves freely.

But what if it extends to bigoted WoD developers, like Mark Rein Hagen? There's a difference between creating such spaces as a matter of principle, which leaves one open to being harassed and attacked by the world for being ♥♥♥♥, crypto-fascist, seemingly far-right, etc., and creating such spaces because one is genuinely bigoted and involved in harmful causes -- that often are not stated/declared publicly.

How is Mark Rein-Hagen a bigot? What he's guilty of (upon looking him up) was not reading the room and trying to be an edge lord. People say these names as if I should know them. My sole business experience with Vampire the Masquerade was writing a treatment for New Line many many years ago after they optioned the film rights. Afterwards it became Vampire the Requiem and then the project went into development hell and disappeared. I don't think I ever even met a single person who worked at White Wolf at the time.

Regardless nothing you said addresses anything I posted, which was corporate behaviour. Since neither of you has any experience in this area and I do perhaps you should not base your opinions on what you think must be right in your tummy and defer to those who have real world experience.

Look at what I posted and look at his response which shows he, and you, clearly didn't read what I said very closely. He essentially thinks I'm lying, which is his prerogative, and it trying to "catch me". The problem is he lacks critical thinking or reading comprehension skills so he is trying to argue over things I never said nor inferred.

Would you like a tl;dr?

Corporations are run by stuffed passionless suits that make metric based decisions and have poor judgement. They make reaction based decisions out of fear and frequently make illogical and contradictory choices.

[warb]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Amadeo:

Allow me to cast a shadow of doubt. Who exactly didn't know anything about the fanbase or the IP? Jason Carl? Outstar? Justin Achilli? Khaldoun Khelil? All of these people were employed on the Paradox side.

Bloodlines is not like the other VTM games. None of these people are cancelling games at Paradox. Outstar said she'd put 150 hours into the HSL game and didn't know why Mitsoda was pushed out, just that it made sense for Paradox and HSL not to disclose why.

[$CRWD]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

How is Mark Rein-Hagen a bigot? What he's guilty of (upon looking him up) was not reading the room and trying to be an edge lord.

If you are unfamiliar with the term and not being rhetorical, I don't mind answering this question.

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

Regardless nothing you said addresses anything I posted, which was corporate behaviour. Since neither of you has any experience in this area and I do perhaps you should not base your opinions on what you think must be right in your tummy and defer to those who have real world experience.

You erroneously claimed that Paradox would profit from in-game references to Nazism when two people have pointed out that it was already incorporated into Brujah lore in the past. I elaborated Clever's claim and then raised the dilemma of incorporating bigoted ideology, even as a matter of principle, as it regards profit and as it regards being a customer. These internet discussions make it too easy for you all to be antagonistic, and accusatory. You don't know anything about us or our experiences. And if you took care, you'd realize we already spoke on the issue of shareholder-driven development and market considerations for this game at length.

[Axus]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Clever Name:

.
It's a matter of perspective more than raw intellect.

Mm, I like that.

[Clever Name]

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

Look at what I posted and look at his response which shows he, and you, clearly didn't read what I said very closely. He essentially thinks I'm lying, which is his prerogative, and it trying to "catch me". The problem is he lacks critical thinking or reading comprehension skills so he is trying to argue over things I never said nor inferred.

Nope, I'm taking issue with the blatantly false assertions that you attempt to use to strengthen your argument.

You can't just say crap like this:

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

I never said anything about the books which Paradox doesn't even write, maintain or even care about

And expect to get away with it. You're playing fast and loose with facts. You tried to argue that Paradox is afraid of macabre storytelling, to which I responded that they are directly responsible for all the macabre, perverted ♥♥♥♥ in the recently published books I referenced. Then you say books don't matter, who cares about those? Then I said that Paradox wiped out the old White Wolf studio precisely over a book-only controversy. Then you said Paradox would put ♥♥♥♥♥ into the books if it was profitable, when they clearly have gone in the opposite direction.

Your entire premise is flawed.

Ursprungligen skrivet av Triple G:

Corporations are run by stuffed passionless suits that make metric based decisions and have poor judgement. They make reaction based decisions out of fear and frequently make illogical and contradictory choices.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure everybody here can agree with that. But that's not the issue. The issue is how you're trying to prove the conclusion that 'Paradox = stupid' without showing the math. You're arguing that Paradox is stupid with unsubstantiated and/or completely wrong assumptions.

Anybody can say Paradox is stupid, because that's the easiest conclusion to reach. It's the low-hanging fruit. The question has always been: how and why did the HSL fiasco shake out the way it did?

And nothing you presented offers any clarity--even hypothetically--to that question.

[Goofy]

Wednesday (Usually, usually comes after Tuesday.) Ill bet when it rarely happens some serious crap goes down. Sorry struck me as hilarious to put usually or even every now and then