My thoughts on playing as an awakened Elder.

[Dragon Master]

I personally think it is an inspired choice to be an awakened elder in this game when it releases. It fully explains why we are more powerful than everyone else, it can explain the leveling up system as our character is just regaining their previous power before they entered torpor. It also means that characters can try to give us exposition on what is happening since we've been out of the loop for probably centuries and don't know what a train is, let alone a cell phone camera.

It also means that we can't trust those who awaken us, nor anyone else for that matter, because we know that if we were awakened it means everyone wants to use us for their own ends and may have to ask why we were awakened and what they hoped to gain from it.

In Bloodlines 1 we were the wildcard, the pawn that every faction wanted to use and make use of, too young to understand the situation and thus too naive to the ways of vampires that we were easy to manipulate and everyone knew it. It's not until the end when we are being hunted by everyone that we have to figure out who to trust and that is what tips the scales in whatever faction's favor, or our own.

It looks like in Bloodlines 2 we are also the wildcard for many of the same reasons, but we are also, as an elder, have the power to make others listen and want us on their side while also being a potential snack. Our lack of knowledge isn't based on being a fledgling vampire but rather not knowing who the big players are and what they represent to the various factions.

[BanDHMO]

I like this change if only because every other game starts you off as a nobody that quickly climbs. It will be refreshingly new.

At the same time, there are drawbacks. Our character becomes the polar opposite of the average new player. He knows everything about kindred society, while the new player knows nothing, and he understands little about the modern world, while the player does. The writing would have to carefully weave between obstacles this presents.

Speaking of lore, I really look forward to finding out WHY exactly we were in torpor. Was it an accident, against our will, or voluntary, part of a bigger plan? If so, what made us want to sleep for centuries?

Although, to be pedantic, I have not seen anywhere anything that says we actually were in torpor for hundreds of years. An elder, sure, but for all we know we could've gone to sleep in something like 1999 in anticipation of the millenium, or something like that, and were only out of the loop for a relatively short time.

[DarkGlam]

Originally posted by BanDHMO:

I like this change if only because every other game starts you off as a nobody that quickly climbs. It will be refreshingly new.

At the same time, there are drawbacks. Our character becomes the polar opposite of the average new player. He knows everything about kindred society, while the new player knows nothing, and he understands little about the modern world, while the player does. The writing would have to carefully weave between obstacles this presents.

Speaking of lore, I really look forward to finding out WHY exactly we were in torpor. Was it an accident, against our will, or voluntary, part of a bigger plan? If so, what made us want to sleep for centuries?

Although, to be pedantic, I have not seen anywhere anything that says we actually were in torpor for hundreds of years. An elder, sure, but for all we know we could've gone to sleep in something like 1999 in anticipation of the millenium, or something like that, and were only out of the loop for a relatively short time.

this made me want we could choose different reasons of the torpor, conditioning the awake and the story but I don't think this depth will be there

[Dragon Master]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

A 300 year old Brujah might not be type cast as a rabble rousing malcontent either.

A 300 year old Malkavian, on the other hand... is probably going to have an incredibly easy time adjusting to the modern world, or it's going to be damn near impossible.

I'm imagining what a 300 year Tremere would be like, waking up to find out all their secrets have been sold out and the clan is on the backfoot, let alone all the modern doo-hicky things that make no sense to someone from 1700.

[Dragon Master]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Dragon Master:

I'm imagining what a 300 year Tremere would be like, waking up to find out all their secrets have been sold out and the clan is on the backfoot, let alone all the modern doo-hicky things that make no sense to someone from 1700.

One would think so, but the House Tremere actually based their magical practices on mastery of the sciences. Or whatever nonsense passed for science back in those days.

Telling a 300 year old Tremere that all this new, highly advanced technology that is nearly indistinguishable from magic was created through science might actually be believable for the Warlocks.

Probably, but it would still be very, very interesting to roleplay an Elder who wakes up to find out his clan has lost its trump card that he or she held close to his or her chest for who knows how long and now has to put things back in order while knowing he or she is also a prime target for diablerie.

[Vevvev]

300 year old Toreador wakes up and learns about modern clothing making techniques and is incredibly intrigued till they see what passes for "modern art". I really hope if I get to play a Toreador there'll be dialogue options related to beauty and how things have changed!

[BanDHMO]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Vevvev:

300 year old Toreador wakes up and learns about modern clothing making techniques and is incredibly intrigued till they see what passes for "modern art". I really hope if I get to play a Toreador there'll be dialogue options related to beauty and how things have changed! :cony_toreador:

"I swear, artists are only truly appreciated after they stay dead."

Nice! That's an excellent reason for voluntary torpor.

[eijibayushi]

Its not. It's like the Chinese Room has no idea what V5 is supposed to be like with the focus on younger vampires and the Beckoning going on...might as well scrap the v5 setting and put it back in v20 or earlier.

[eijibayushi]

300 year old Sabbat: Oh the parties over and the Sabbat fell and became a murder cult? *Sadge face*

[eijibayushi]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by eijibayushi:

might as well scrap the v5 setting and put it back in v20 or earlier.

A vast improvement, I would say.

Originally posted by eijibayushi:

300 year old Sabbat: Oh the parties over and the Sabbat fell and became a murder cult? *Sadge face*

Don't forget the part about where they joined up with middle eastern terrorist groups. Because apparently the writers didn't learn their lesson from the backlash they received about the Rwandan situation.

OR having Neo Nazi as a Brujah character concept? Or the prisons for gay people in Russia and then saying that the vampires did that to distract from their actions? I keep hearing bad things about Outstar too being xenophobic against Latin americans.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Yup, 5th edition's writers took current day, real world tragedies and tried to present them as being tied up in vampire conspiracy plots. It was met with outrage, for very obvious reasons, but that should tell you about the kind of mentality of the people in charge of writing 5th edition.

Yeah, but doesn't a lot of V20 lore do the same thing? As in, tie real-world history into vampire plots.

I fail to see the difference between 'trivializing' historical tragedies like various wars and crusades and inquisitions, and simply mentioning, in passing, that current and similarly terrible situations are also manipulated, exploited, or directed, by vampires.

I mean, the underlying point to all of it is that vampires are despicable, right? So it's not glamorizing or justifying horrible behavior when it's associated with the plots of inhuman, amoral vampire elders.

The only real difference is that so many people today on the internet are insanely whiny and stupid, while back when V20 did basically the same things, there wasn't a global platform for a minority of self-righteous losers to express exaggerated outrage.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by eijibayushi:

Its not. It's like the Chinese Room has no idea what V5 is supposed to be like with the focus on younger vampires and the Beckoning going on...might as well scrap the v5 setting and put it back in v20 or earlier.

A lot of V5 is dumbed down from V20. Some of it's unavoidable after essentially rebooting the timeline, while other elements had no reason to be diluted, yet still were.

I think getting rid of all the elders with a lazy plot device is lame for the simple reason that it restricts player choice. V20 gave us the option to be a weak (starting) vampire, or a strong (experienced) one. V5 only allows us to be weak or extremely weak.

Clearly, the new devs think that starting weak didn't fit their vision for the game. I'm cautiously optimistic, since starting as a fledgling gets really tiresome and predictable; not just in vampire games, but in all games.

It's possible they're keeping V5's setting, and our elder character is just special in being able to resist the Beckoning or whatever it's called.

This would make sense, because it'd make our character quite important and a highly desirable ally or kingmaker or outright leader material.

If the setting is more V20-like, then us being an elder isn't that special.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Clever Name:

Yeah, but doesn't a lot of V20 lore do the same thing? As in, tie real-world history into vampire plots.

NOT in such a blatant and ham fisted manner, no. It may draw upon the real world as inspirational tropes, but it doesn't use a direct 1 to 1 reference.

I'm talking specifically about Clan book lore.

The Lasombra, for instance, has a blurb about how much they love (or at least some of them do) embracing serial killers.

Now, just because they don't mention a specific real-life killer--does that change how inherently 'insensitive' the passage is to people who might be related to a victim of a serial killer?

Nope.

You could easily, if you wanted, argue that even the mere mention of serial killers being desirable for any reason, is either trivializing or glamorizing the act of serial killing.

Here's another example of a real-world reference, again from the Lasombra clan book: a blurb on submarines and how vampires use them, mentions a Kilo-class sub that was sold by Russia to Iran in '95.

That's superficially true and based on reality.

Going back much further, the historical references are constant. Pompey destroyed the Lasombra navy of his time. The Black Death in Europe, the Inquisition, the flu of 1919, etc.

The Tzimisce book mentions the Armenian genocide, and the Camarilla buying influence in the 'thoroughly corrupt Harding administration' in the early '20s.

This is just stuff I'm gleaning from a very quick skimming.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

I have no idea how the heck I'm expected to respond to this? It sounds like you're suggesting any depiction of serial killers in media is being insensitive to their victims?

Actually, I would've preferred that you respond to the instances I mentioned of real world events being casually referenced in vampire lore.

But I mentioned serial killers because it's a repulsive topic that could easily 'trigger' people. You know, the same way they got triggered back in 2018, followed by the White Wolf team being cancelled.

Here's an excerpt of a statement by Paradox from around the time of the purge:

“In the Chechnya chapter of the V5 Camarilla book, we lost sight of this,” wrote Paradox’s vice president of business development, Shams Jorjani, in a statement. “The result was a chapter that dealt with a real-world, ongoing tragedy in a crude and disrespectful way. We should have identified this either during the creative process or in editing. This did not happen, and for this we apologize.”

Okay, now here's an excerpt from the Ventrue Clan book:

"In Germany, matters were more complicated. Many Ventrue had strong antipathy toward the Nazi party, chiefly because of its professed “socialist” and “populist” roots. Too many aspects of Hitler’s program reminded the old Ventrue of the Inquisition. Coupled with Hitler’s known interest in the occult, the elders saw a very real danger in a populist movement steeped in mysticism. If the Nazi party could believe Jews were responsible for all their evils, would it be such a step for them to believe that vampires had a role as well?"

"The younger Ventrue felt no such fear. They saw in Hitler what the Italian Ventrue saw in Mussolini: a new hope. The Nazis could restore order, rebuild the industries and armies, and keep the population in line. As it turned out, influencing Hitler was nigh impossible,
chiefly because he was so well guarded and so paranoid of paranormal manipulation that no Kindred could get to him. Although many Ventrue benefited from and had local influence within the Nazi party, few had any say in its direction."

I'm not going to split hairs on the finer points of whether certain vampires personally directed certain war crimes and the like. What's important is that the Ventrue are mentioned as being enmeshed to some degree within the Nazi party.

Yet the modern thin-skinned cretins on the internet went nuts simply by the slightest mention of Brujah embracing neo-Nazis.

While the same modern thin-skinned cretins would use this as evidence that White Wolf was always pro-Nazi, I'm saying that recounting how some vampires became Nazis does not espouse Nazism any more than recounting how some vampires embrace serial killers is a ringing endorsement of serial murder.

Only a hyper-sensitive moron looking for things to complain about would try to connect those dots.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Plus, Nazi Germany happened almost a century ago. Anybody who would still get 'triggered' by it is probably sitting in some nursing home somewhere and doesn't give a crap about a gothic vampire game.

You don't see them freaking out over the tons and tons and tons of video games, comic books, movies, and TV shows featuring Nazi's, so why would they suddenly take up arms against WoD?

The fact that White Wolf could 'get away' with what they did in the 90s, while approximately 20 years later the same style of world-building got them cancelled, should tell us how rapidly and completely the thin-skinned idiots have taken over.

All irrational swings of the pendulum must eventually average out, but I think we're still stuck in this idiot-rules cycle for at least another decade.

[Dragon Master]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Clever Name:

All irrational swings of the pendulum must eventually average out, but I think we're still stuck in this idiot-rules cycle for at least another decade.

Maybe, but then again, maybe not. It's gotten to the point where even some of the biggest juggernauts of the industry are going up in flames while trying to capitulate to these people. Soon, they will learn that ancient wisdom that sparked this kind of fandom in the first place:

"Corporations are not your friends." - They go where the money is, and if you're not making as much as they want you to, they will cut you off and seek better opportunities elsewhere.

This is happening all over the place. Less than five years ago people were saying Disney was too big to fail and look at them now, scrambling, being forced to pay more money they actually have on hand to buy a third of Hulu and the stock dropping signficantly off a cliff so Bob Iger has to go "It's time to quiet the noise in the culture war". They also fired their DEI director, the CFO and multiple other executives.

WotC had to back down when they tried doing the OGL changes and Unity followed the exact same pattern just this past two weeks.

Apple, Xbox and other big corporations didn't even get past a week in June before removing the rainbow colors in their websites and their advertising when they saw what was going on with Target and Bud Light.

Simple fact is this, this course has run and the money has dried up so the corporations will find another well to try dig money out of, with a few holdouts hoping for the last few drops of water in the current well.