Lasombra or Followers of Seth?

[DarkGlam]

I would like to play these two, I hope we have more freedoom than ever before

[Hao Zhao]

Originally posted by Coffee Break Hero:

There's a difference between hating nazis in-game and what's going on with V5, don't you think? Perhaps V5's sin is that it went all meta and broke immersion about it.

Again, WOD has ALWAYS made direct references to real life politics. Did you somehow miss Damsel in a red star beret with Che Guevara pasted across her chest? Not exactly subtle. She even goes on a rant about capitalism. lol

[Coffee Break Hero]

Originally posted by Hao Zhao:

Originally posted by Coffee Break Hero:

There's a difference between hating nazis in-game and what's going on with V5, don't you think? Perhaps V5's sin is that it went all meta and broke immersion about it.

Again, WOD has ALWAYS made direct references to real life politics. Did you somehow miss Damsel in a red star beret with Che Guevara pasted across her chest? Not exactly subtle. She even goes on a rant about capitalism. lol

The thought behind the references to real life politics of people with the culture of the 00' is completely different than that of people today, and so is the feel of the person on the other side

[LotR[Henchman]]

I'd like to see more or less every clan. Just alone to see what they'll be able to do with their Powers. But i wouldn't mind them even doing just three or something, if those are then done very well. I'd perhaps even prefer some deep dive with single clans over some shallow "3 words changed in a sentence"-for the different clans, approach.

But then i think the more colourful (in terms of powers and unqiueness) are easily done.
Tzimisce are one of the prime example, where one might really ask how Felshshaping should work. Though i don't think that should rule Sethites or Lasombras out.

[BanDHMO]

Originally posted by Hao Zhao:

Vampire: The Masquerade, in particular, is a setting about old, out of touch elders harming and manipulating the younger generations.

I don't think it was that simple. The beauty of a good story/character is that there are multiple angles to look from and see something different. Every faction and clan had a point. Nobody is just straight up "they're crazy and evil, don't think about it".

From the perspective of young vampires, the elders are out of touch and oppressive, but from the other side, they are bearing a heavy burden trying to maintain a system to protect these same neonates from a fate far worse than being manipulated and bossed around.

Which, by the way, is an excellent metaphor for how societies work in reality. Pretty rarely do you have such an ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ that just says "I oppress because mwa-ha-ha". They always think they are doing the good thing and ends justify the means.

Anyway, I never got into V5, so can't really say if it deteriorated into "good guys vs bad guys". I hope not. Just wanted to say that in VTM Ventrue definitely didn't all think they are out to harm and manipulate, they think they are heroes bearing a heavy burden for the benefit of all civilized vampire society.

[Hao Zhao]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Hao Zhao:

You don't know any tabletop lore. Abandoning the Sabbat was easy because

1) the Sabbat is trash and its leaders were all exposed as losers, and

2) Sabbat doctrine was proven to be pretty much completely false. They built an entire army for Caine to use during Gahenna. Well, Gahenna happened and Caine didn't show up. The Sabbat were not worth his time and they never have been. Why would any vampire with a brain stick around after that?

I guarantee I know more about the lore than you seem to, given how flimsy your attempts to defend it have been.

Unlike the Ventrue, the Lasombra do not 'cut their loses' and flee at the first sign of trouble. They are absolutely ruthless when it comes to crushing the opposition, and they are one of the few clans who can at least claim to have slain their own antedeluvian (yes, it was a ruse, but still).

When choosing who to grant the embrace to, the Lasombra have a screening process that involves the sire going out of their way to destroy the childe's life and make their existence a living hell. If the candidate has the ambition and the ability to claw their way up from the ashes and back into a position of prominence, then they are deemed worthy and inducted into the clan.

The Lasombra are accustomed to ♥♥♥♥ hitting the fan. They actively welcome it, so that they can demonstrate just how much better they are to everyone, when they overcome such odds.

ALSO, the Sabbat's strategy was never to fight the Antedeluvians in a direct confrontation. Their plan was to locate their resting places and kill them before they had the chance to awaken. Something which the writers seem to have missed, or just didn't care for.

-------------------------

Finally, V5 changed the way Gehenna worked. It was supposed to be a massive, apocalyptic scenario with multiple choice endings that depending on which version you wanted to go with, resulted in either the death of all vampires, or the death of nearly everyone on the planet.

In V5, however, Gehenna is being presented as a slow, subtle process that's being waged off in the background where the players don't have to deal with it. The Antedeluvians routinely go through a cycle of destroying their clans and then rebuilding them throughout the millennia.

You don't know anything about the lore other than small summaries you read on a wiki. You openly admitted that you don't own a single clan book. Just V20 tabletop. You have none of the lore. Your guarantees seem to be worth as much as your monthly declarations of blocking people. lol

Nothing you typed here about the Lasombra contradicts anything I said. In fact, everything you just typed makes them look REALLY different from the Ventrue. It was YOUR point that these two clans are basically the same. Good work.

If you had any of the Sabbat books, you'd know that their entire dogma is based around Gahenna prophecies. Gahenna is guaranteed to happen and Caine is definitely going to join with them to stop it. Except that didn't happen because they were just wrong.

[BanDHMO]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

The Elders do not give a ♥♥♥♥ about anybody but themselves

Obviously, but that's not the point.

A farmer or store owner doesn't give a ♥♥♥♥ about any individual customer, only making money, and a judge or cop doesn't really care that much about every victim or criminal, but as a result of everyone doing their job and upholding the system, everyone reaps the benefits, has food and safety. More of less. It's far from perfect, but it beats living in the wild west with armed gangs roaming the lands and looting everything.

Same with the Ventrue. They are obviously out for themselves just like everyone else, but their whole claim to fame is upholding an orderly system that supposedly benefits everyone. Not equally, of course not, but still. If the system weren't there, every kindred would suffer. Or so they say.

Now, maybe you think they are all liars (and they are), but I don't think we can say the Camarilla is useless. The Masquerade is what it's all about, it's literally the name of the game.

[BanDHMO]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by BanDHMO:

Same with the Ventrue. They are obviously out for themselves just like everyone else, but their whole claim to fame is upholding an orderly system that supposedly benefits everyone. Not equally, of course not, but still. If the system weren't there, every kindred would suffer. Or so they say.

Which is actually funny, because one of the biggest celebrities among clan Ventrue has a recurring habit of just taking themselves off the grid and letting society collapse because they're bored.

He reestablishes order among the cainites for fun!

Layers under layers under layers. Exactly what makes the world so much fun. Man, I hope they don't screw it up into something stupidly simplistic with "bad guys bad, good guys good, you kill bad, you good, yay!"

[DarkGlam]

Originally posted by BanDHMO:

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Which is actually funny, because one of the biggest celebrities among clan Ventrue has a recurring habit of just taking themselves off the grid and letting society collapse because they're bored.

He reestablishes order among the cainites for fun!

Layers under layers under layers. Exactly what makes the world so much fun. Man, I hope they don't screw it up into something stupidly simplistic with "bad guys bad, good guys good, you kill bad, you good, yay!"

you sound like you dont believe in true evil, it also exist, or do you think serial killers all have a good side? :D
Forcing everything to be seen in shades of grey is a lie

[BanDHMO]

Originally posted by DarkGlam:

Originally posted by BanDHMO:

Layers under layers under layers. Exactly what makes the world so much fun. Man, I hope they don't screw it up into something stupidly simplistic with "bad guys bad, good guys good, you kill bad, you good, yay!"

you sound like you dont believe in true evil, it also exist, or do you think serial killers all have a good side? :D
Forcing everything to be seen in shades of grey is a lie

This is hardly the right forum for deeper questions like this, but I'll try to briefly explain. It's not that "oh, nothing is good or bad, everything is ok, koombaya". No, the really scary thing isn't that there is true evil, it's that evil can seem good, even to someone who honestly considers themselves a good person. If all evil in the world was just due to cartoonish villains, it would be easy. But it's way worse than that.

That's the kind of cool story/RP twists WoD is really well set up to do, the way I see it. Everyone is damned, everyone has an agenda, but some seemingly evil agendas might actually be good for you, while others might seem good, but kill you, and it's never obvious which one is which. So watch carefully, do not act rashly, think, strategize, scheme, and when ready and sure, act swiftly with overwhelming power. And you'd better not make a mistake. You've got to admit this makes for a better RP than "big bad monster stole our princess, save her from that castle". :)

[BanDHMO]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by BanDHMO:

This is hardly the right forum for deeper questions like this, but I'll try to briefly explain.

I would argue that World of Darkness is the perfect forum for a discussion like this.

In fact, didn't they release a game called Slasher, which is entirely based on playing a supernatural serial killer?

WoD, yes, definitely. I was referring to Steam forums. They're typically not meant for this kind of stuff, though this is for an unreleased WoD game.

[Coffee Break Hero]

Originally posted by DarkGlam:

Originally posted by BanDHMO:

Layers under layers under layers. Exactly what makes the world so much fun. Man, I hope they don't screw it up into something stupidly simplistic with "bad guys bad, good guys good, you kill bad, you good, yay!"

you sound like you dont believe in true evil, it also exist, or do you think serial killers all have a good side? :D
Forcing everything to be seen in shades of grey is a lie

The color of a person matters not from the outside and not from within. It is what should be done with them
Some should be shot in the head, others in the leg. Some should be removed from society. Some should get therapy. People are complicated ya'll. The only semi-nazi (I don't think he actively harmed anyone) I befriended in my life (dorm room partner) was just a poor ginger that was massively bullied as a child and rationalized his being bullied by thinking "they had to have had a good reason for bullying me. I must have deserved that bullying."
I'm not saying a lot of what he said wasn't ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥, but what he needs, which is psychotherapy, guidance and people who accept him, is different than what a 1945 nazi needs, which is a bullet, probably
PS: you would be surprised how many shades of grey there were in german citizenry during those time. A lot of people did awful things from fear, others from hate, others from a f'ed up sense of pride. You would be surprised how many American soldiers would do awful things if they felt like their commander and group would be proud of them if they did them.

TLDR: people are complicated, ya'll

[Coffee Break Hero]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by BanDHMO:

This is hardly the right forum for deeper questions like this, but I'll try to briefly explain.

I would argue that World of Darkness is the perfect forum for a discussion like this.

In fact, didn't they release a game called Slasher, which is entirely based on playing a supernatural serial killer?

Honestly I would love to sounds like a really interesting concept if it's not just fish-serial killer and has good writing.

[LotR[Henchman]]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by LotRHenchman:

I'd like to see more or less every clan. Just alone to see what they'll be able to do with their Powers. But i wouldn't mind them even doing just three or something, if those are then done very well. I'd perhaps even prefer some deep dive with single clans over some shallow "3 words changed in a sentence"-for the different clans, approach.

My hope is that since we don't have that Thin Blood story anymore, we'll get access to all three clan disciplines, instead of just two. Being an elder vampire with access to only two of your clan disciplines, and some 'unique' gimmicky power that is a watered down version of what the clans already do would just be absurd.

It really would be nice getting all disciplines. Though i still think they did the Lasombra dirty in V5 with their discipline. But well...
I don't think the implications of the changes would really matter in a computer game. It's unlikely that they'll go deep into lore in any game.

[DarkGlam]

Originally posted by lazarusblack:

Originally posted by DarkGlam:

you sound like you dont believe in true evil, it also exist, or do you think serial killers all have a good side? :D
Forcing everything to be seen in shades of grey is a lie

I don't believe in true evil myself. Or true goodness either. They're nice concepts, yes both of them, because if we allow ourselves to believe that a bad thing happens "because Evil" then it makes it both easier to accept bad things happening and it absolves us of responsibility. How?

If we do something "Evil", we tell ourselves that we have been influenced by something external to ourselves. It isn't in fact something within us that has resulted in our being "evil" It isn't something in the ordering of our soceity that made us do something terrible. No, The devil made us do it. Pfft. At the same time, when someone else does something "Evil" we no longer need to empathise or relate to someone, who understandably many would feel great discomfort with empathising or relating too. Easier to mark them "touched by evil" and you can dispose of them without much thought. It would be righteous even. Because they are evil. It removes the onus to understand what it is in the individual or perhaps society, that has led to this normal human being doing terrible things.

We can also use this same concept, to justify not doing the really hard work of learning about complex and nuanced things and figuring out equally complex and nuanced solutions to those things. Seeing the world in black and white is easy. It's comforting. Recognising that the world is a more complex, less binary system involves hard work. It makes it very difficult to get to the root of the matter. Most people don't have the time, energy or motivation to do that hard work. A lesser "evil" in itself?

The same with good. It's too easy to say that something or someone is good. Reality invariably proves that nothing is truly and wholly "Good"

Good and Evil as anything beyond linguistic shorthand for more complex motivations, is a contrivance of those that can't or won't do the work to understand the world in more meaningful terms.

A serial killer isn't evil. Yet they cause great harm. I'd be in favour of execution for a proven serial killer. Best way to avoid them causing further harm. But to believe them "Evil" removes the need to understand what has gone wrong both in society and the individual, to have led to them doing so much harm. Because they were "Evil" you can just erase the individual and their "Evil" is gone too. No need for reflection or investigation. Nice, neat, tidy, simple, and wrong.

Serial killers are very different from each other, some are true evil, most are not and have been pushed to their limits by society or life. Seems you are too naive to talk about this because the array of ways to be is infinite, most people has light and dark side but also exist few people only good and also there are people, more than you think, they are just plainly too evil to believe someone can be this way and they are born like this, is not in every case related to how they lived or had nothing to do with society.

I dont recommend believing everyone has something good inside, is very dangerous and sooner or later backfires to you.

[Harukage]

Yeah. I would love to have some Lasombra vampire. I do love the Magisters for their "grey cardinal" and "true power is above all " styles. Even their clans disciplines mark them for domination: physical, mental and mystical. No wonder their clans symbol is a crown.
I would also like to see Tzimisce. There is just so much you can do with their disciplines. Not to mention i am very tired to see them as an absolute evil guys in every damn videogame up to this day.