The future of Vampire and Paradox

[Clever Name]

For those unaware, today it was announced that Blood Hunt has officially ceased further development. It will be on maintenance mode. With a current player peak of roughly 1500 a day, it might not take long to go fully kaput.

As this relates to Bloodlines 2:

Paradox now has officially screwed up on all fronts regarding the WoD franchise. For the record, I'm not anti-Paradox; they've made some games I like over the years, some I don't. I couldn't care less about their DLC policy.

I am, therefore, not gloating or making a swipe at Paradox. I'm simply stating facts. Blood Hunt is officially dead, Swansong was, to my knowledge, not successful critically or commercially, and Bloodlines 2 is or was in a really poor development situation.

How much longer do you think Paradox will keep the IP?

How much longer should they keep it?

We know that, within the last few years, some unnamed games that were in development were cancelled by Paradox. We can assume at least a few of those were in the WoD setting. This likely means that nothing is currently in development for WoD, aside from Bloodlines 2.

I think they should've just cut their losses and axed Bloodlines 2, since, without any 'companion pieces' in their lineup, it's not going to do any favors for the franchise. If it succeeds, they have nothing to follow up quickly, and if it fails, they have nothing to mitigate the failure.

In my opinion, they should sell the IP as soon as possible. Too many mistakes (like not trying a grand strategy or MMO, both more suitable to the setting than Blood Hunt or Swansong), with nothing good on the horizon.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by LotRHenchman:

And not knowing how much PDX actually paid for the IP and what their strategic goal was, it all could just be seen as additional revenue no matter how bad those licence deal games performed.

The strategic goal was, I think, to get brand recognition for a setting that was woefully unappreciated and untapped. In other words, to expand the customer base.

The method seemed to be: let anybody make a game set in WoD, see what sticks.

So far, nothing has stuck.

The IP went from being unproven back when Paradox bought it (at least as far as video games are concerned) to now having a string of failures. It makes the whole IP look bad if nobody can manage to create a successful game using it.

If, at the very least, any of the games released so far were widely popular with WoD fans, that would be a small comfort. But it seems they not only can't break out into the mainstream, they also can't even decide what would make their core audience happy.

There should have been a central vision guiding the development of each WoD game. The best way to do this would be to include multiple sub-settings within WoD, in the same overarching MMO experience. Werewolves, ghosts, and vampires, all in the same MMO, eventually. Might take a few years to build it all up, but the potential would be there.

Meanwhile, generate revenue with cosmetics. Bloodhunt's cosmetic shop really wasn't bad, and I already suggested (over on their forum) they should reuse Bloodhunt's assets for an MMO. Wishful thinking, I know.

If you combined a fraction of the development effort and money spent on making multiple failed WoD games, into a single MMO, you might actually have something to show for it.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by Anvos:

We've known for a while Paradox's plan for this stage didn't include a game like Bloodlines 2 until Brian Mitsoda brought them a great story pitch, and as long as they don't hurt the IP all the licensed games by indies are net profit for Paradox from the licensing fees.

Strictly speaking, if you're not growing the IP you're hurting it. I don't know who would really want to buy it at this point, since it's clearly not a cash cow. Wouldn't the licensing fees from a handful of games just be paying off the initial outlay when Paradox purchased the IP? It's not going to instantly turn a profit from a few license deals.

What would recoup the purchase cost of the IP faster, and thereby generate pure profit faster, is having a few successful games that would generate more interest from bigger developers, who in turn would make more ambitious games using the IP, which might bring in more fans.

That is, ultimately, what Paradox would've wanted.

[LotR[Henchman]]

Originally posted by Clever Name:

Originally posted by LotRHenchman:

And not knowing how much PDX actually paid for the IP and what their strategic goal was, it all could just be seen as additional revenue no matter how bad those licence deal games performed.

The strategic goal was, I think, to get brand recognition for a setting that was woefully unappreciated and untapped. In other words, to expand the customer base.

The method seemed to be: let anybody make a game set in WoD, see what sticks.

So far, nothing has stuck.

The IP went from being unproven back when Paradox bought it (at least as far as video games are concerned) to now having a string of failures. It makes the whole IP look bad if nobody can manage to create a successful game using it.

If, at the very least, any of the games released so far were widely popular with WoD fans, that would be a small comfort. But it seems they not only can't break out into the mainstream, they also can't even decide what would make their core audience happy.

There should have been a central vision guiding the development of each WoD game. The best way to do this would be to include multiple sub-settings within WoD, in the same overarching MMO experience. Werewolves, ghosts, and vampires, all in the same MMO, eventually. Might take a few years to build it all up, but the potential would be there.

Meanwhile, generate revenue with cosmetics. Bloodhunt's cosmetic shop really wasn't bad, and I already suggested (over on their forum) they should reuse Bloodhunt's assets for an MMO. Wishful thinking, I know.

If you combined a fraction of the development effort and money spent on making multiple failed WoD games, into a single MMO, you might actually have something to show for it.

A MMO would likely necessitate a big investment. I don't see anyone doing that anytime soon. Just look at the Hidden/Secret World or how that MMO was called. Or how other more Horror games (Call of CThullu) perform... Meaning i guess it would be a hard sell to investors to get the money for a urban horror fantasy MMO.
Unlikely someone is taking such a big risk imo. And looking at how the WHFB MMO crashed and burnt (or so many other lately) i don't even think the genre is such a good bet currently.

You seem to think that PDX needs a huge mainstream success to make the WoD work for them. While they've afaik (almost) steadily been growing from smaller game releases. So why should they now need a huge mainstream success?
Maybe i'm wrong but i don't think those possibly failed games have garnered as much ill-will towards PDX or the WoD as you might think.

So i don't think PDX should sell the IP. They likely got plenty of time to try for some Grand Strategy title or some such (i think they're likely keeping an eye on how many player tested the WoD CK3 mod).
And i think they've done well with their LA by Night series and might look further into getting Voice Actors to play those games, that seemingly did a lot for DnD. Or look into doing their own alternatives to D20/DnDBeyond and whatnot, as that might also help them in the long run and at least in my mind is something they might be able to apply their existing knowledge to.

In the end i might often come across as being overly critical of PDX and yes, i think they've often done wrong in the last years. But i recognize that they've also done a lot right and think they'll keep doing a lot right.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by LotRHenchman:

A MMO would likely necessitate a big investment. I don't see anyone doing that anytime soon.

Making Bloodhunt couldn't have been cheap. Cheaper than an MMO with any kind of ambition, yeah, but not by a lot. It needed the same network infrastructure an MMO would require; the entire city of Prague; multiple character models with dozens of unique outfits (not talking about the recolors); weapon mechanics; vampire discipline mechanics; etc. That's a large chunk of what an MMO would require.

As I said, the budget of just a couple of these abysmal failures could easily fund an MMO, and I guarantee you that any MMO would hook a larger portion of the core WoD audience than a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ battle royale.

Originally posted by LotRHenchman:

You seem to think that PDX needs a huge mainstream success to make the WoD work for them. While they've afaik (almost) steadily been growing from smaller game releases. So why should they now need a huge mainstream success?
Maybe i'm wrong but i don't think those possibly failed games have garnered as much ill-will towards PDX or the WoD as you might think.

They don't need a mainstream success; but I'm sure they want one. I mean, isn't that always the goal for any IP?

Isn't that why Bloodhunt even bothered trying to break into the battle royale genre? To go mainstream? To get people interested in WoD, who otherwise wouldn't know it existed?

It's not about ill-will, it's about the IP stagnating and being in no better shape now than it was ~10 years ago.

[LotR[Henchman]]

Originally posted by Clever Name:

They don't need a mainstream success; but I'm sure they want one. I mean, isn't that always the goal for any IP?

Isn't that why Bloodhunt even bothered trying to break into the battle royale genre? To go mainstream? To get people interested in WoD, who otherwise wouldn't know it existed?

It's not about ill-will, it's about the IP stagnating and being in no better shape now than it was ~10 years ago.

I mean... who wouldn't want a big success?
But wanting one and planning for one are different things. PDX has yet to release the one title they've done themselves, as afaik only Bloodlines2 is a title they've got real control over.
Also business in the end isn't about customers served, but money made. And being king in a niche can simply be smarter than trying to aim for the big mainstream and fail spectaculary.

Once again likely Sharkmob, not PDX, when we're talking about the general direction of Blodhunt. Meaning it's not really PDX pushing for mainstream by choosing Battle Royale or something.

The IP isn't stagnating imo. V5 was released in that time. Paradox has taken control over V5 in the last years and build up more awareness around the IP with LA by Night and similar things. Before that i don't think you had any real reach outside of the already established fanbase.
Inbetween 2005 and 2019 you got 1 Video game with the WoD IP. Since then you got 10+ titles.

Yes most titles were COYA/VisualNovel titles, still that's more than you had before that.
And i neither remember WW nor CCP Games nor Onyx Path pushing as publically news on several social media channels as PDX now is.
A constant trickle of new fans due to COYA games selling like 10k units, is still preferable over not having a single release.

But please, feel free to disagree with my opinion. I think we won't reach a general agreement either on how good/bad PDX has done with the WoD IP. Especially as i'm one of those wierd guys who thought the nWoD with VtR is adn was a lot more approachable and flexible than the oWoD and thereby should have been pushed more by PDX ;)

[Hao Zhao]

Originally posted by Clever Name:

Originally posted by LotRHenchman:

A MMO would likely necessitate a big investment. I don't see anyone doing that anytime soon.

Making Bloodhunt couldn't have been cheap. Cheaper than an MMO with any kind of ambition, yeah, but not by a lot. It needed the same network infrastructure an MMO would require; the entire city of Prague; multiple character models with dozens of unique outfits (not talking about the recolors); weapon mechanics; vampire discipline mechanics; etc. That's a large chunk of what an MMO would require.

As I said, the budget of just a couple of these abysmal failures could easily fund an MMO, and I guarantee you that any MMO would hook a larger portion of the core WoD audience than a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ battle royale.

Originally posted by LotRHenchman:

You seem to think that PDX needs a huge mainstream success to make the WoD work for them. While they've afaik (almost) steadily been growing from smaller game releases. So why should they now need a huge mainstream success?
Maybe i'm wrong but i don't think those possibly failed games have garnered as much ill-will towards PDX or the WoD as you might think.

They don't need a mainstream success; but I'm sure they want one. I mean, isn't that always the goal for any IP?

Isn't that why Bloodhunt even bothered trying to break into the battle royale genre? To go mainstream? To get people interested in WoD, who otherwise wouldn't know it existed?

It's not about ill-will, it's about the IP stagnating and being in no better shape now than it was ~10 years ago.

Bloodhunt exists because Sharkmob approached Paradox Interactive to buy a licence to Paradox's Vampire the Masquerade brand. An MMO doesn't exist (and likely never will exist) because no one wants to make one. You still don't appreciate that Paradox has no direct involvement in the making of these games beyond selling a license that allows third parties to use their trademarks.

In 2023, an MMO would be one of the worst investments you could make. There are very few people who subscribe to multiple MMOs. They pick one MMO they like the best and play that one. A World of Darkness MMO would be competing for subscribers with Final Fantasy XIV, World of Warcraft, and however many other games, all of which would have 40x more content than the WOD MMO would have at launch. Almost every new MMO is completely crushed after a month because of this reality.

I don't know where people get this idea that World of Darkness is some kind of mainstream brand with bazillions of consumers. It's not. It's a very small and niche brand with a limited following.

[Bumbo]

Originally posted by Hao Zhao:

The biggest "failure" in WOD history is Bloodlines 1. It sold so poorly that everyone involved with it lost their shirts. The launch product was so incomplete and broken that the developers immediately went out of business. You have strange definitions of failure. These other games make money and their developers continue to exist. lol

Bloodlines wasn't the sole cause of Troika collapsing. It is also by far the most popular WoD product that extends beyond the TTRPG niche. Just because Troika shut down doesn't mean things can't have long-tail due to word of mouth and positive press/influencer coverage.

Originally posted by Clever Name:

As I said, the budget of just a couple of these abysmal failures could easily fund an MMO, and I guarantee you that any MMO would hook a larger portion of the core WoD audience than a ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ battle royale.

It absolutely would not come close to the cost of developing and maintaining an MMO.

[Blind Gardener]

Choice of games released a number of very good Vampire the Masquerade games:
https://www.choiceofgames.com/vampire-the-masquerade/sins-of-the-sires/
https://www.choiceofgames.com/vampire-the-masquerade/parliament-of-knives/
https://www.choiceofgames.com/vampire-the-masquerade/out-for-blood/
https://www.choiceofgames.com/vampire-the-masquerade/night-road/

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by LotRHenchman:

Once again likely Sharkmob, not PDX, when we're talking about the general direction of Blodhunt. Meaning it's not really PDX pushing for mainstream by choosing Battle Royale or something.

I brought up Bloodhunt's attempt at going mainstream as a general business decision made; I wasn't saying Paradox directed them to do it.

The point was that ALL businesses want to hit the mainstream. I just find it funny that anybody, anywhere, in any leadership capacity, thought a VtM battle royale would work.

Regardless of the supposedly suicidal folly that making an MMO now would result in, the fundamental truth remains: an MMO suits the WoD setting far, far, far more than a battle royale.

I fail to see the business logic in greenlighting a royale that is 100% doomed to fail, versus not greenlighting an MMO that would at least have a chance of retaining more than 1500 players during peak play.

Anyway, it's Paradox's choice to not develop a WoD version of the only kind of game they could do well: a strategy game.

It should've been done years ago. Not sure what they're waiting for. Unless they think it wouldn't sell that well, in which case you have to wonder why they even bought an IP they don't have much faith in.

[GeekFreak]

I'd love an mmo similar in feel to The Secret World, but in the WoD setting.

[Anvos]

Not really and mmo. WoD is best suited with a story focused single player rpg with a multiplayer coop mission mode rather than a true mmo. Then go the old school expansion dlc model.

[Gesuma]

A MMO can have a strong single player focused story. FF14 is the current no. 1 MMO doing just that.

[Bumbo]

Originally posted by Clever Name:

Originally posted by LotRHenchman:

Once again likely Sharkmob, not PDX, when we're talking about the general direction of Blodhunt. Meaning it's not really PDX pushing for mainstream by choosing Battle Royale or something.

I brought up Bloodhunt's attempt at going mainstream as a general business decision made; I wasn't saying Paradox directed them to do it.

The point was that ALL businesses want to hit the mainstream. I just find it funny that anybody, anywhere, in any leadership capacity, thought a VtM battle royale would work.

Regardless of the supposedly suicidal folly that making an MMO now would result in, the fundamental truth remains: an MMO suits the WoD setting far, far, far more than a battle royale.

I fail to see the business logic in greenlighting a royale that is 100% doomed to fail, versus not greenlighting an MMO that would at least have a chance of retaining more than 1500 players during peak play.

Anyway, it's Paradox's choice to not develop a WoD version of the only kind of game they could do well: a strategy game.

It should've been done years ago. Not sure what they're waiting for. Unless they think it wouldn't sell that well, in which case you have to wonder why they even bought an IP they don't have much faith in.

Bloodhunt would have be deemed an even worse failure by you if it peaked at 1500 players, what chance would an MMO have with the same player count? Are you seriously under the impression that MMOs are cheaper to make and maintain than a Battle Royale title?

And they did try developing a World Of Darkness MMO, they knew what their competition was offering and it collapsed under its own ambitions to offer something different from World of Warcraft, Guild Wars 2 and Final Fantasy XIV, never mind the other countless MMOs that have died trying to get a sliver of that market share.

The other problem is that the MMO you're imagining in your head is some perfect idealization rather than what we most likely would have gotten even from CCP the previous WoD owners.

[Hao Zhao]

Originally posted by Gesuma:

A MMO can have a strong single player focused story. FF14 is the current no. 1 MMO doing just that.

FF14 also has a staff of hundreds of developers and the backing of Square Enix, one of the biggest video game companies in history.

The World of Darkness MMO would be made by some studio with 5% of the resources working within a tight budget. Then when that MMO fails to immediately take off, half of the staff will be laid off after the first month, like The Old Republic.

There's no way that a WOD MMO could live up to the image some people have created for it in their heads. Do you expect every Clan/Tribe/Whatever to be unique? No, instead every clan would probably play 99% the same. All werewolves would play the same. And because World of Darkness' various supernaturals are generally hostile toward each other, how do you divide the player base? Do you take a small community and try to divide it into half a dozen factions? That's a great idea if you want to be in queue for dungeons for like 5 hours. Do you have all of them working together causing the game to feel more like The Avengers rather than World of Darkness?

This MMO is just a bad idea. They were right to cancel it.

[Bumbo]

Originally posted by Gesuma:

Originally posted by Lord Dunsany:

Combat is an important part of this universe

It is?

Yes? Vampires don't live in secrecy because it's fun.