I could not be more disappointed than I am right now.

[Mako Ruu]

It seems like the Bloodlines IP really is cursed. First the game was off to a rocky start years ago, got canceled, completely remade from scratch, and now we get this new gameplay showcase; I'm thinking "Hell yeah, new Bloodlines." Only for my disappointment to grow more and more as the video went on.



VtM is an RPG, not some Hero action theme park. This is not my personal horror story.



At the risk of seeming too edgy, I won't be buying this game at launch, and I wish the devs the best of luck. But without character creation, or having my own story, and with some guy chatting in my head the entire game, and everything on rails.. That's a BIG NO from me.



I just wanted to put in my two cents like everyone else, man. I'm so disappointed right now. Guess I'll play Baldur's Gate 3 for a fourth time.

[Hao Zhao]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Hao Zhao:

Don't be ridiculous on purpose now. Many of these characters have been in Torpor for a long time but they've also been awake for thousands of years too. Kemintiri has been active the entire time.

Again, you're just objectively wrong. lol

Your argument that humanity 0 is inevitable is baseless.

I can't be 'objectively' wrong, when the rule books responsible for laying out the mechanical system of the game state otherwise.

There is a section talking about Humanity which is quite literally titled "the Downward Spiral." I mean, seriously, how much more supportive of my side of the argument can it get at that?

-------------------

The Downward Spiral

Vampires are monsters, and even a Kindred with the highest of Humanity ratings is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothing. Nonetheless, as Humanity erodes, vampires not only become capable of, but also actively pursue, ever more depraved acts. It is in a vampire's nature to hunt and kill, and eventually every vampire finds himself holding the corpse of a vessel he had not intended to murder.

It is important, then, to know how vampires change as their Humanity ratings deteriorate. Vampires' behavior, even under the auspices of Humanity, may become so utterly depraved and alien that the very thought of her causes discomfort in others. After all, a low Humanity rating indicates that very little connects the Kindred with her mortal origins.


---------------------

I already quoted what Humanity 3-2 is like, so here's a quote about Humanity 1.

Humanity 1: "Only nominally sentient, Kindred with Humanity 1 teeter on the edge of oblivion. Little matters to vampires this far gone, even their own desires outside of sustenance and rest. There is literally nothing a vampire with Humanity 1 won't do, and only a few tattered shreds of ego stand between him and complete devolution. Many who attain this stage find themselves no longer capable of coherent speech, and spend their nights gibbering blasphemy in their gore-spattered havens."

You can purposely misinterpret that text as much as you want. lol

V20 supplementary materials are filled with character sheets that clearly show characters like Kemintiri being thousands of years old and not declining below humanity 3. You are objectively wrong according to V20 canon. Do you I need to point out Kemintiri in 5 more posts to get you to acknowledge this bit of canon that you have no response to? That does seem to be the trend here. lmao

[Anvos]

There is a reason its called a Remorse Roll, it isn't a kindred finding an excuse for their actions (outside failure of the Remorse Roll), its whether or not they still care about the morality of their actions rather than justifying their personal survival and gratification is more important than everything else (which is what the Beast wants).

The Hierarchy of Sins further wasn't automatic degradation, and had its own Humanity Roll.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

The concept of your character rolling to remove a Stain on their Humanity, is that your character finds some way to justify their behavior, so that they can indulge their Beastly nature without succumbing further to its influence.

When you have more stains than you have free spots of humanity (in a tracker with 10 total spaces, thus, 7 humanity has 3 free spots), you suffer penalties until the end of the session (when you would normally have to wait to roll for remorse); or you can simply dismiss the stains right then and there to eliminate the penalties.

But you immediately drop humanity level. That is how you justify bad behavior. You can dismiss moral questions instantly, but you pay the price accordingly.

Removing stains by making a successful remorse roll, means you processed some level of guilt for your actions. Or at least accountability that you did something immoral, even if you don't necessarily feel guilty over it.

[Harukage]

Isn't that why the Paths of Enlightement exist? You replace Humanity with your own morality and live happily. Not necessarily by indulging your Beast, but also living in harmony with it, or taking control over it, or destroying the leverages it has over you.
At the very least it was hinted many times that most the older vamps even inside Camarilla switch to them. While vamps like Ur-Shulgi openly do that.
There is also The Path of Entelechy that was already mentioned once by me. Wich is a suped up Path of Humanity with layers of discipline and courage added above. You do not just try to keep your Humanity but also required to keep strict self-control and always stand on the side of Justice discarding any fear. I wonder what is the stance of Camarilla about that Path?

[Harukage]

Yes, but elders and older are also not playable in V5.
And honestly, since Tzimisce are listed in Anarchs, it is insane to expect them to have Humanity for morality system.

[Anvos]

Originally posted by Harukage:

Yes, but elders and older are also not playable in V5.
And honestly, since Tzimisce are listed in Anarchs, it is insane to expect them to have Humanity for morality system.

V5 the take on Humanity is more free form, where there are only certain limited things that are always stains and even then there are the convictions, which don't have to be positive/virtuous.

Plus keep in mind the elder Tzimitzsce who are on Paths and Metamorphisists are the ones who would feel the Beckoning, kept on the Sabbat self destruction train, or were easy targets for the SI. Thus you're left with the youths who hadn't been indoctrinated by their elders and who growing up with plastic surgery has made the whole flesh crafting less taboo, or ancillae and elders only payed lip service to the Sabbat.

[Harukage]

I very much doubt you can just change the conservative clan with that. Accepting the truth that you are a monster is at the very core of the clan.
Not to mention that historically the clan is split into 2 main branches: Carpathian and Byzantian, who are constanly locked in philosophical dispute, that often led to conflicts. One seeking spirituality in traditional pagan practices, the other are adherents of hedonistic beliefs of Dracon, Michael and Antonius. Yet both are variants of Metamorphosis and never dispute their own nature.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Harukage:

Yes, but elders and older are also not playable in V5.
And honestly, since Tzimisce are listed in Anarchs, it is insane to expect them to have Humanity for morality system.

Tzimisce and Setites both joined Anarchs.

Assamites and Lasombra both joined Camarilla.

I'd like to point out that the Tzimisce are not fully in the Anarch sect. Not 'officially', to my knowledge.

The V5 Players Guide has a list of all the playable sects (Camarilla, Anarch, and Independent) and the clans that commonly join them, and Tzimisce are listed as independents.

I believe the confusion arises from the fact that younger Tzimisce join the Anarchs, while the older ones would rather remain unaffiliated.

Even when they were nominally Sabbat, the Tzimisce could hardly be called 'active' members in many cases.

[Harukage]

But then again we can only play young ones in V5. So Anarchs they are.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by Harukage:

But then again we can only play young ones in V5. So Anarchs they are.

We can play as 10th gen ancillae, which means we can be embraced as far back as 1790.

[Clever Name]

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Originally posted by Clever Name:

We can play as 10th gen ancillae, which means we can be embraced as far back as 1790.

Uhh, I'm pretty sure 1790 would qualify as Elder, seeing as that's, like, 300 something years ago.

Last time I looked up the age ranges, the Ancillae were stated to be between 50 to 150 years old.

It's 200 years. 234 years.

Age means nothing relative to the beckoning. The only thing that matters is 9th gen and lower gens are called away, leaving 10th gen and above playable.

[Clever Name]

For the record, straight from V5 corebook:

Fledglings are embraced in the last 15 years. Neonates are, for some odd reason, anywhere from 10 years old to as far back as 1940. Ancillae are from 1780 (not 1790, as I erroneously stated above) to 1940.

The book explicitly says that ancillae are under 250 years old, while elders are 9th gen and older than 250.

250 is therefore the V5 line of demarcation. Whatever V20 said no longer applies.

The fact that Phyre is 'only' 300 years old, active years, makes her a fairly young elder.

[Harukage]

Okay, lets take another point of view. Banu Haqim. What about them? Do you expect me to believe that they suddenly droped their beliefs? Even though not as radical as Ur-Shulgi who made his own cult, but still.

[Harukage]

Assamite from 1920 would not even think about diablerie though. Because they were still under Tremere curse from their treaty with Camarilla at that time. They had learned to satisfy their needs and lower their generation with blood potions produced by their alchemists. That why the price of their services was also a kindred blood.
The problem will arise when Cam will start to do their common BS, and Banu Haqim will feel honour bound to uphold Justice and punish someone. Like a stupid Prince for example.

[Anvos]

Originally posted by Harukage:

Okay, lets take another point of view. Banu Haqim. What about them? Do you expect me to believe that they suddenly droped their beliefs? Even though not as radical as Ur-Shulgi who made his own cult, but still.

Keep in mind the Ashirra made it so you had to be Islamic to achieve any position of status in the sect, so now, those living in the secular Camarilla organization aren't incentivized to be religious, and thus those who only payed lip service to Islam can stop being so and the neonates and fledglings who aren't ingrained in religion are freer to follow their own path. Plus add in that with becoming refugees a lot of the new Banu Haqim are ones recruited more for having the lawbringer/upholder trait rather than having the religious requirements (especially when in Europe and the Americas it far more pigeon holes your perspective childer to focus on only kine of a certain religion).

Originally posted by GrandMajora:

Yeah, the Schism is a fairly recent development within the clan. And given the fact that we see Phyre biting into the necks of their enemies with reckless abandon (one of which is none other than Willem, a fellow vampire), I'm going to assume they had no qualms about ritualistic diablerie.

If Phyre has been around for 4 centuries, it stands to reason they would have complied with Ur-Shulgi's demand. I could only imagine the modern Assamites taking up issue with a divine mandate to devour people's souls because of religious indoctrination.

Being embraced around the 1620s Phyre would thoroughly be past the rise of the Islamic Variant of Banu Haqim/Assimite belief coopting the Path of Blood and would have lived their unlife under the Tremere Blood Curse. Thus no Phyre would be about the opposite of an Elder that would side with Ur Shulgi, if they were awake.

Also regardless of clan protecting Phyre from Ur Shulgi and his minions, along with the Gehenna Crusaders very well could be the reason Phyre was moved out of the Middle East.