How do you think they'll represent our power?

[Axus]

I know we'll start the game with reduced stats - but still, we're an elder. We're going to be more powerful than the fledgeling in BL1.

Do you think they'll throw groups of fairly advanced soldiers at us from the beginning? We should be able to slice through an unarmored gang like butter. I'm thinking a group of fairly tactical soldiers may be an equivalent to the beach house of casual thugs we fought at the beginning of BL1.

Anyone ever play City of Heroes? It's an MMO where we are a superhero or villain, and most enemies are groups there - so we end up defeating single targets quite quickly, and feel like the actual enemy unit is a pretty big group.

I'm just wondering if TCR will implement something similar. I hope that one swipe of our claws or whatever is enough to kill a thug though, from the beginning.

Wondering how soon after we start we'll see very advanced enemies.

Any thoughts? What do you think combat should be like in the beginning?

Follow up: How do you think our power should be represented toward the end of the game?

[Clever Name]

I would think that Brujah will be the most powerful in normal combat (against mortal enemies), followed by Banu Haqim and Tremere.

I don't understand how the Ventrue will kill as efficiently as the above 3. It should have decent crowd control (Dread Gaze, etc), but ordering people to kill themselves will surely have a limit, either by 'recharge' time or by hunger. So what a Ventrue does in between ordering suicides and getting people to freeze or flee, I wonder.

As for power representation, I think it'll be conventional. We'll be able to beat the sh** out of average thugs from the start, but mortal enemies will probably get stronger and then supernatural threats will probably increase in power and frequency as the game progresses.

At that point we'll hopefully get some choice in how to level up our disciplines.

[Clever Name]

Początkowo opublikowane przez W.R. Winter:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Clever Name:

So what a Ventrue does in between ordering suicides and getting people to freeze or flee, I wonder.

punch bad guy

Would be nice to see some gun play. Brujah and Banu Haqim don't need it, but Tremere and Ventrue could both benefit from using guns.

[Hao Zhao]

Początkowo opublikowane przez GrandMajora:

They won't. If you're a level 1 character, getting manipulated and yanked around by every lick hoping to use you in their own schemes for power, you aren't playing an Elder.

Elders are supposed to be top of the pecking order. They do not take orders, they issue them.

Remember the words of Smiling Jack: "Dottering, old dust farts. They might be powerful as all hell, but who knows? They're too afraid to stick their heads out of their hidey holes, and why should they? This whole huge system is rigged up so they don't have to."

Then there's Skelter: "Your elders control the blood. They command the blood, and the blood listens. You'll never even hear their call, but the blood will, and it will make you obey."

Wrong. The official definition of Elder is as fellows:

"Elder: a vampire who has experienced at least two or more centuries of unlife. Elders are the most active participants in the Jyhad."

That quote is taken directly from the corebook. The only criteria for being an elder is being a vampire for at least 200 years. That's it.

[Ivory]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

Wrong. The official definition of Elder is as fellows:

"Elder: a vampire who has experienced at least two or more centuries of unlife. Elders are the most active participants in the Jyhad."

That quote is taken directly from the corebook. The only criteria for being an elder is being a vampire for at least 200 years. That's it.

You missed the point. It's heavily implied and showcased throughout the lore that Elders are powerful vampires who command others by force, influence and schemes. The Camarilla itself is a hierarchical system with Elders at the top of the pyramid. Age alone isn't everything but since vampires are notoriously power-hungry creatures, it stand to reason that an older vampire has probably accrued some power and influence throughout its existence.

[Hao Zhao]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ivory:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

Wrong. The official definition of Elder is as fellows:

"Elder: a vampire who has experienced at least two or more centuries of unlife. Elders are the most active participants in the Jyhad."

That quote is taken directly from the corebook. The only criteria for being an elder is being a vampire for at least 200 years. That's it.

You missed the point. It's heavily implied and showcased throughout the lore that Elders are powerful vampires who command others either by force or influence. Age alone isn't everything but since vampires are notoriously power-hungry creatures, I'd be surprised if one managed to survive that long without accruing some influence in kindred society.

I think you missed the point. "Elder" is just age. You don't need to go on "implications" and make guesses because the corebook explains how all of this works in great detail. Here's another quote:

"A vampire in torpor loses Blood Potency at the rate of one level per 50 years"

Phyre has been asleep for 100 years. She has lost two entire levels of blood potency which represents a massive loss of power.

What influence does she have if she's been asleep for the last hundred years? We know absolutely nothing about the circumstances of why she entered torpor either. For all we know, she was crushed by another elder and forced into torpor. For all we know, she went into torpor in a completely different country and someone moved her body to Seattle.

It's absolutely possible to be an elder who has no influence in greater kindred society at all.

[Ivory]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

It's absolutely possible to be an elder who has no influence in greater kindred society at all.

Possible doesn't mean probable. Honestly, what are the statistical chances of that happening given a vampire's nature? I think it's much more likely for you to stumble upon an Elder that has achieved something than not, as I find it unlikely for most Sires to Embrace a nobody or layabout.

Childer are usually seen as tools and if they can't amount to anything they probably won't survive for long amidst kindred society. Being part of the Camarilla makes this even more notorious as Siring is a select privilege, meaning Sires would be even more cautious about whom they Embrace.

Besides, I don't think Phyre is a "nobody" as despite being asleep for a century she was still recognized as "The Butcher of Cairo". A title like that comes with implications.

[Hao Zhao]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ivory:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

It's absolutely possible to be an elder who has no influence in greater kindred society at all.

Possible doesn't mean probable. Honestly, what are the statistical chances of that happening given a vampire's nature? I think it's much more likely for you to stumble upon an Elder that has achieved something that one has amounted to nothing, especially considering the vast majority of Sires don't Embrace nobodies and layabouts with no ambition.

Besides, I don't think Phyre is a "nobody". Despite being asleep for a century, she was still recognized as "The Butcher of Cairo". A title like that comes with implications.

The "statistical chances" are whatever the writers say they are because Vampire: The Masquerade is fiction and not real. What are you even on about? Statistical chances as if someone has done an academic study on how likely it is for vampires to not have social influence? What?! lmao

Quote the corebook passages that back up any of your claims here, please.

[Ivory]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

The "statistical chances" are whatever the writers say they are because Vampire: The Masquerade is fiction and not real. What are you even on about? Statistical chances as if someone has done an academic study on how likely it is for vampires to not have social influence? What?! lmao

Quote the corebook passages that back up any of your claims here, please.

If the best answer you could come up with is "it's up to interpretation" then my point stands. I think it's common sense for the majority of vampires to amount to something due to their nature and circumstances. You're free to disagree, after all, that's the beauty of "subjectivity".

[Hao Zhao]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ivory:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

The "statistical chances" are whatever the writers say they are because Vampire: The Masquerade is fiction and not real. What are you even on about? Statistical chances as if someone has done an academic study on how likely it is for vampires to not have social influence? What?! lmao

Quote the corebook passages that back up any of your claims here, please.

If the best answer you could come up with is "it's up to interpretation" then my point stands. I think it's common sense for the majority of vampires to amount to something due to their nature and circumstances. You're free to disagree, after all, that's the beauty of "subjectivity".

Well, no, the best answers I came up with were direct quotes from the official corebook showing that you are wrong. I'm quoting canon. You're making up fanfiction.

[Ivory]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ivory:

If the best answer you could come up with is "it's up to interpretation" then my point stands. I think it's common sense for the majority of vampires to amount to something due to their nature and circumstances. You're free to disagree, after all, that's the beauty of "subjectivity".

Well, no, the best answers I came up with were direct quotes from the official corebook showing that you are wrong. I'm quoting canon. You're making up fanfiction.

Your quotes neither prove nor deny what I said.
Besides, GrandMajora quoted lines from Bloodlines 1 that align with what I said, unless you're going to tell me the lore of that game isn't canon either (at least by V20 standards). Also, the lore has gaps on purpose precisely so storytellers can "make up fanfiction".

[Hao Zhao]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ivory:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

Well, no, the best answers I came up with were direct quotes from the official corebook showing that you are wrong. I'm quoting canon. You're making up fanfiction.

Your quotes neither prove nor deny what I said.
Besides, GrandMajora quoted lines from Bloodlines 1 that align with what I said, unless you're going to tell me the lore of that game isn't canon either (at least by V20 standards). Also, the lore has gaps on purpose precisely so storytellers can "make up fanfiction".

My quotes directly deny what you're saying because you believe that Elder has anything to do with anything other than age. What I'm posting is the official rule. Understand? This topic is about Bloodlines 2 which runs under V5 rules and only V5 rules.

There is no "lore gap" and the official definition of Elder is someone who has been a vampire for 200+ years. The end. It's not ambiguous. It's not up for interpretation. This is literally the official ruling from the official corebook. I asked you to quote the passages from the corebook that back up ANYTHING you've claimed here and you couldn't do it.

[Hao Zhao]

Początkowo opublikowane przez GrandMajora:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

Wrong. The official definition of Elder is as fellows:

"Elder: a vampire who has experienced at least two or more centuries of unlife. Elders are the most active participants in the Jyhad."

That quote is taken directly from the corebook. The only criteria for being an elder is being a vampire for at least 200 years. That's it.

You mistake being 'active' in the Jyhad for being active in the field.

'The Jyhad' is the code name given to the byzantine politics of vampire society. Elders are the puppet masters who are pulling everybody's strings while they sit in the shadows reaping all of the benefits.

Also, if you think somebody can live for over 2 centuries in Vampire society without being a certified badass, you are laughably naive. If you aren't biting and clawing your way to the top, you'll be exploited by somebody who is, then cast aside once your usefulness to them has been expended.

I don't know why you're talking about the Jyhad when it has nothing to do with what we're talking about. An elder is officially anyone who has been a vampire for 200 years.

Even just using Bloodlines 1, you're still wrong. LaCroix is just under 200 and he goes down without a fight at all. He gets taken out by being stabbed by a letter opener. LOL

And again, the corebook says you're wrong about all of this because you rapidly lose blood potency while in torpor.

[Hao Zhao]

Początkowo opublikowane przez GrandMajora:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

Phyre has been asleep for 100 years. She has lost two entire levels of blood potency which represents a massive loss of power.

Phyre's been asleep for 100 years, but they've been around for 400+. Somebody that old should be around BP 6 or 7 at the very least.

If a century of sleep was enough to make them a weakling, then there wouldn't be any need to sap their powers with this blood ritual they carved into their flesh.

Where are you getting 400+ years from?

If she's BP6, then she's in even MORE trouble because BP6 is the line where the Withering kicks in and Elders rapidly lose all of their powers. On top of that, she would also be experiencing the Beckoning which would also cripple her unless she chooses between going to the Middle East or going back into torpor.

[Ivory]

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Ivory:

Your quotes neither prove nor deny what I said.
Besides, GrandMajora quoted lines from Bloodlines 1 that align with what I said, unless you're going to tell me the lore of that game isn't canon either (at least by V20 standards). Also, the lore has gaps on purpose precisely so storytellers can "make up fanfiction".

My quotes directly deny what you're saying because you believe that Elder has anything to do with anything other than age. What I'm posting is the official rule. Understand? This topic is about Bloodlines 2 which runs under V5 rules and only V5 rules.

There is no "lore gap" and the official definition of Elder is someone who has been a vampire for 200+ years. The end. It's not ambiguous. It's not up for interpretation. This is literally the official ruling from the official corebook. I asked you to quote the passages from the corebook that back up ANYTHING you've claimed here and you couldn't do it.

I'm not questioning the age, I'm just saying that it's unlikely for a vampire to be 200+ years old without having acquired some kind of influence or reputation among the kindred society. For you to be a 200+ years vampire in this hostile world, you have to have some capacity to survive/murder/scheme - someone with some ambition - and that is why I think it's unlikely for an Elder to just be a "nobody".

This isn't just about the age, it's about the implication that for you to be that old you must have gone through some ordeals, which means experience, which means power.

[Hao Zhao]

Początkowo opublikowane przez GrandMajora:

Początkowo opublikowane przez Hao Zhao:

There is no "lore gap" and the official definition of Elder is someone who has been a vampire for 200+ years. The end. It's not ambiguous. It's not up for interpretation. This is literally the official ruling from the official corebook. I asked you to quote the passages from the corebook that back up ANYTHING you've claimed here and you couldn't do it.

Once again, if you think somebody can exist for 200 years in vampire society without amassing power, you are laughably naive.

Vampires, by their very nature, are solitary predators. They cooperate with each other only for the sake of convenience, even though their Beast is loath to share power and territory with its rivals.

And this need for cooperation becomes less frequent as they gradually build their own power base. Eventually, coteries dissolve as members go their separate ways. Having acquired enough resources and subordinates that they no longer need each other's help to survive.

Once again, I am not posting opinions. I am posting canon facts. Phyre is an Elder because she is more than 200+ years old. You don't even remember what you were originally arguing anymore.

You were arguing that being an elder is tied to power and influence. That is objectively false. Please quote the section of the V5 corebook that backs up your claims.