why is Paradox so awful and incompetent?

[Red Star, Blood Moon]

Seriously, the moment I heard it was going to PDx I groaned. I to this day pin the bulk of the blame on them, and their own greed and utter incompetence. I guess at least on the plus side I have not as of yet been made to suffer seeing literally $300 worth of DLCs that should've been in the base game. Paradox is one of the top three worst vidya companies. I rank it in this exact order of awful from worst to less worse: EA, Activision, Paradox.

I have no idea why people just let Paradox get away with it while harping on Activision and EA. Not even EA goes to the extent of PDx in their greed, which I guarantee you there would've been microtransactions, and likewise guarantee you that part of Mitsoda's firing had to do with them trying to splice little bits of content into paid DLC and microtransactions that would've alienated their whole team especially the writing team.

Now that VTMB has been getting trashed as a franchise before it even left the gate we can faithfully say that Paradox is right up there alongside Activision. I so, so wish CCP or whomever else could've been in charge of this. It was literally one of the three worst companies, although I guess to be fair Bethesda also would've been freaking awful.

Hot take: Ubisoft itself isn't even that bad, at least not atrocious. Had Ubisoft been left in charge of this project and simply retained much of the original writing team, artists, and composer, it probably would've turned out fine. The Division makes me think in spite of being a triple A studio that they could've really aced it with the open world part, and simply left other people in charge of programming the RPG mechanics and the writing and plot. I had a ton of fun with The Division in winter of 2020, and quite frankly their own writing wasn't bad either and can see them making actually great fantastic games if they simply stopped making casual bydlo tier AAA cover shooters and got staff with the right stuff to make the branching story RPG elements.

Am I mad about all this? Yes and no. Because now I don't get to see something I cherished so crudely and savagely violated as I always knew Paradox was going to do. And yes this steam sale I'm looking at an old game, from 2015, and Cities: Skylines has literally I ♥♥♥♥ you not $200 worth of DLC the overwhelming bulk of which should've been in the base game. The absolute audacity of these Swedes would've been incredible had this game gotten released this spring and subjected us all to the endless parade of cut basegame content resold as DLC for $20 to get "2 new custom outfits! plus 3 new NPCs with dialogue options!" and then another one "two new disciplines and a new hat! wow only $15!" and then "be the most seductive vampire possible with this all new Seductive Fang DLC now you can use persuasion and seduction skills!"

You think I'm joking or being hyperbolic--I'm not. The moment I heard Paradox was in charge I assumed that's what they were going to do and how this would all play out. The greed of the corporation would win out. Whole missions cut to be rebranded as DLC. All the original staff lips sealed under atrocious NDAs. All kinds of crap we never wanted like coop and in game stores for special items and additional skill points. I'd love it if you could prove me wrong--but I know you won't. I have no faith in this company, never had faith in them to begin with, and so this project remaining totally up in the air with all the actual good staff like writers fired with nothing to show for it as of July 2021 doesn't surprise me in the slightest.

[Coffee Break Hero]

yea "tales from the tiers" being a dlc felt like cut content to me... and the companion quests being a dlc in bastard's wound. woof.

[Indvstrial Black]

IMO Fallout New Vegas had the best pricing model of a modern single player RPG. I also think favorably of Skyrim. Everyone I know is currently replaying both of these games: spanning all race groups and nationalities I know. Neither uses a 'cash shop' which I think would be a serious no-go zone for BL2 from my impressions of gamers outside and on this forum.

I've started replaying New Vegas myself and am trying out the DLCs and mods. It has a lot of buggy quests but, overall the experience has been good relative to other games. I never feel ripped off: the DLCs I bought were on discount too, since I bought the game late. I get lots of gameplay for a decent price.

New Vegas is known pretty much by all Fallout fans as the 'peak' of that game series as well. I think if BL2 had a similar approach: each DLC being a new land to explore with new guns, clothing, questgivers, questlines, etc. it would do well.

In addition the modding has given it a big marketing outreach into Nexusmods and other modding communities which retroactively add enhancements for people to use years after the game releases. Anyone who wants specific clothing, guns, character mods also can plug them into the game later.

[Indvstrial Black]

5 new mods just today. https://www.nexusmods.com/newvegas

Game is 11 years old...

[Red Star, Blood Moon]

Kaos님이 먼저 게시:

IMO Fallout New Vegas had the best pricing model of a modern single player RPG. I also think favorably of Skyrim. Everyone I know is currently replaying both of these games: spanning all race groups and nationalities I know. Neither uses a 'cash shop' which I think would be a serious no-go zone for BL2 from my impressions of gamers outside and on this forum.

I've started replaying New Vegas myself and am trying out the DLCs and mods. It has a lot of buggy quests but, overall the experience has been good relative to other games. I never feel ripped off: the DLCs I bought were on discount too, since I bought the game late. I get lots of gameplay for a decent price.

New Vegas is known pretty much by all Fallout fans as the 'peak' of that game series as well. I think if BL2 had a similar approach: each DLC being a new land to explore with new guns, clothing, questgivers, questlines, etc. it would do well.

In addition the modding has given it a big marketing outreach into Nexusmods and other modding communities which retroactively add enhancements for people to use years after the game releases. Anyone who wants specific clothing, guns, character mods also can plug them into the game later.

That seriously depends on which Fallout series and which fans of which you speak. Among those of us more NMA types, I don't actually consider it a Fallout game. To me there was pseudo-Fallout "Fallout" Tactics, and then that was it for about a decade until Wasteland 2 aka Fallout 3 came out.

All of the Bethesda games are just Morrowind with laser rifles and radscorpions to me, including New Vegas. It still was a pretty decent game in spite of the numerous problems I had with it from the pass/fail skillchecks to the idiotic plot and shallow storytelling and subpar dialogue, but it still was miles away from the other irradiated Oblivion game where you fight orcs with machine guns.

[Hao Zhao]

BlackSun님이 먼저 게시:

GrandMajora님이 먼저 게시:

Paradox wasn't the only developing the game, they're just publishing it. The company who were in charge of developing the game are the ones to blame for this monumental screw up. There's multiple documents from people who worked in or around the studio which describe how terribly they were handling things during the production period.

I take Paradox firing them as a sign of good fortune. They probably realized what kind of disorganized amateurs they hired for the job, and began looking for somebody who could actually produce results.

As for the 'open world' stuff, I'm not sure where you got that idea from? It's already been confirmed that Bloodlines 2 will be separated into hub worlds, just like the first game was. Although these hubs will be significantly larger, due to the improvements of technology, and the fact the production company hopefully won't go bankrupt this time.

It was their wisdom to punt it off to that company in the first place, possibly to save money.
>hubs
Which are, themselves, like small open worlds, although frankly I'd much, much rather have had them do one huge open world where maybe they were meatgated by very powerful, high level cainites. I mean at least it would make more sense there than any MMO which basically just has the same enemies inexplicably taking an army worth of firepower to the head like WoW, The Division, Secret World Legends etc. I know it's a lost cause, but still. Would rather have had one huge open world than hubs.

But for the hubs themselves? Yeah. It's like small contained open worlds gated off from each other, which I was hoping to be big enough to feel like that, which is in many ways what each hub in VTMB felt like and which was pretty huge for its time (least felt that way).

As to anybody wondering just why I have so much mistrust about all this vis a vis content and DLCs
https://store.steampowered.com/app/651440/Tyranny__Bastards_Wound/
Here just read reviews on this for example. That is why some of us are so angry/suspicious/pessimistic/or otherwise not terribly hyped for them handling this as a company. But like I said again though, prove me wrong bro. Release an actually completed game. Idgaf about the bugs either VtMB and a whole slew of other old games were buggy and I forgave them. I'd rather a buggy game getting patched later that's good at a fundamental level, than one where it's released piecemeal and you need a couple hundred dollars for a completed game.

You don't know what you're talking about and I suggest you go back and read the interviews from when Tyranny was originally announced. Tyranny and all of its content was 100% Obsidian, not Paradox. Paradox did very little publishing for this game. They marketed Tyranny and they distributed it.

You're also 100% wrong when it comes to Bloodlines 2. Paradox did not start this project. Hardsuit Labs came to Paradox with a tech demo they built and pitched it to Paradox. Paradox did not go to Hardsuit Labs.

You don't care that everything that comes out of your mouth is 100% factually incorrect. You're really mad at video games and you're not going to let a little thing, like the facts, get in the way of that.

[Indvstrial Black]

BlackSun님이 먼저 게시:

Kaos님이 먼저 게시:

IMO Fallout New Vegas had the best pricing model of a modern single player RPG. I also think favorably of Skyrim. Everyone I know is currently replaying both of these games: spanning all race groups and nationalities I know. Neither uses a 'cash shop' which I think would be a serious no-go zone for BL2 from my impressions of gamers outside and on this forum.

I've started replaying New Vegas myself and am trying out the DLCs and mods. It has a lot of buggy quests but, overall the experience has been good relative to other games. I never feel ripped off: the DLCs I bought were on discount too, since I bought the game late. I get lots of gameplay for a decent price.

New Vegas is known pretty much by all Fallout fans as the 'peak' of that game series as well. I think if BL2 had a similar approach: each DLC being a new land to explore with new guns, clothing, questgivers, questlines, etc. it would do well.

In addition the modding has given it a big marketing outreach into Nexusmods and other modding communities which retroactively add enhancements for people to use years after the game releases. Anyone who wants specific clothing, guns, character mods also can plug them into the game later.

That seriously depends on which Fallout series and which fans of which you speak. Among those of us more NMA types, I don't actually consider it a Fallout game. To me there was pseudo-Fallout "Fallout" Tactics, and then that was it for about a decade until Wasteland 2 aka Fallout 3 came out.

All of the Bethesda games are just Morrowind with laser rifles and radscorpions to me, including New Vegas. It still was a pretty decent game in spite of the numerous problems I had with it from the pass/fail skillchecks to the idiotic plot and shallow storytelling and subpar dialogue, but it still was miles away from the other irradiated Oblivion game where you fight orcs with machine guns.

Yeah I can see how that is annoying.

I played the original Fallout, tried Tactics and dumped it cause I thought it sucked and haven't played it in 20 years until I got New Vegas. Liked it (mostly, with some complaints) but, without following the series I didn't have that in-between knowledge of how the game was treated.

I would say New Vegas is a good "model" for a game but, definitely agree the lore and questing were sub-par.

[Indvstrial Black]

Black Isle did Fallout1. Yeah his beef is with the lore. I can dig it.

I'm hoping BL2 is to VTM v2 what New Vegas is to Fallout1. I'll have lore complaints but, I know them already: hoping for a good platform though and mods.

[Red Star, Blood Moon]

Hao Zhao님이 먼저 게시:

BlackSun님이 먼저 게시:

It was their wisdom to punt it off to that company in the first place, possibly to save money.
>hubs
Which are, themselves, like small open worlds, although frankly I'd much, much rather have had them do one huge open world where maybe they were meatgated by very powerful, high level cainites. I mean at least it would make more sense there than any MMO which basically just has the same enemies inexplicably taking an army worth of firepower to the head like WoW, The Division, Secret World Legends etc. I know it's a lost cause, but still. Would rather have had one huge open world than hubs.

But for the hubs themselves? Yeah. It's like small contained open worlds gated off from each other, which I was hoping to be big enough to feel like that, which is in many ways what each hub in VTMB felt like and which was pretty huge for its time (least felt that way).

As to anybody wondering just why I have so much mistrust about all this vis a vis content and DLCs
https://store.steampowered.com/app/651440/Tyranny__Bastards_Wound/
Here just read reviews on this for example. That is why some of us are so angry/suspicious/pessimistic/or otherwise not terribly hyped for them handling this as a company. But like I said again though, prove me wrong bro. Release an actually completed game. Idgaf about the bugs either VtMB and a whole slew of other old games were buggy and I forgave them. I'd rather a buggy game getting patched later that's good at a fundamental level, than one where it's released piecemeal and you need a couple hundred dollars for a completed game.

You don't know what you're talking about and I suggest you go back and read the interviews from when Tyranny was originally announced. Tyranny and all of its content was 100% Obsidian, not Paradox. Paradox did very little publishing for this game. They marketed Tyranny and they distributed it.

You're also 100% wrong when it comes to Bloodlines 2. Paradox did not start this project. Hardsuit Labs came to Paradox with a tech demo they built and pitched it to Paradox. Paradox did not go to Hardsuit Labs.

You don't care that everything that comes out of your mouth is 100% factually incorrect. You're really mad at video games and you're not going to let a little thing, like the facts, get in the way of that.

You're one of the literally just two people I don't give a ♥♥♥♥ what you have to say about anything. You and that other guy who got banned ITT I saw arguing with other people and it's clear you're the worst posters here aside from ♥♥♥♥-post drive bys from the woke right, as I said previously the other ♥♥♥♥ poster being Zhao something or other.

Kaos님이 먼저 게시:

Black Isle did Fallout1. Yeah his beef is with the lore. I can dig it.

I'm hoping BL2 is to VTM v2 what New Vegas is to Fallout1. I'll have lore complaints but, I know them already: hoping for a good platform though and mods.

Nah it could never possibly be that, because New Vegas was so far afield from anything Fallout other than happening to use the same lore whereas VtMB2 would be using the same perspective, same or similar mechanics and so on, same musician, same hub system. I think you mean "an acceptable game on its own" and that's the best we could hope for.

[RadioactiveMicrobe]

GrandMajora님이 먼저 게시:

BlackSun님이 먼저 게시:

Also I just want to reiterate the one point again, the last time Paradox got involved in an RPG was Tyranny. Please go and look at the reviews for Tyranny's DLC. I bought and played that game. It was actually a pretty good game; I liked it more than Pillars of Eternity 1 in fact. However, it still got saddled with a bunch of the problems which I ultimately blame on Paradox, including taking what people saw as base content out so as to bundle it as pricey DLC later. Yes, that is what I'm afraid of Paradox doing to this game.

I take Paradox firing them as a sign of good fortune. They probably realized what kind of disorganized amateurs they hired for the job, and began looking for somebody who could actually produce results.

Paradox didn't fire them. The new management they hired basically called it a lost cause and stopped development

[GalloglassCA]

So basically OP is just ranting, none of which actually adds up with what happened and concepts like how a publisher vs developer works wasn't even considered, got it.

[Red Star, Blood Moon]

GrandMajora님이 먼저 게시:

RadioactiveMicrobe님이 먼저 게시:

Paradox didn't fire them. The new management they hired basically called it a lost cause and stopped development

That doesn't sound legal...

Can you just take your publisher's money, ♥♥♥♥ around for half a year, then call the thing off and tell them to find somebody else?

I don't know depends on the contract really.

While they can totally do that with kickstarter money or telling us they're going to release a full game and run off with our money after an alpha test, this is a major company and they WILL hunt your ass down.

However he and you are probably losing the message here. PDx from what I gather brought in a team to assess the damage, and according to what some people said said the project was totalled. It's basically more like bringing your new guys in to check how the building is going since your sub contractor was ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ up, and the new contractors tell you "welp basically nothing is level, it's only half done after the target completion date, and the foundation's so crooked it's not even worth bothering to fix it so we need to just tear all the ♥♥♥♥ down and lay a new foundation starting from scratch."

Of course, I frequently just hear all kind of rumours and chinese whispers going on with this board to where I feel like I know less what's happening now than I did before. Regardless the real problem is going to be screwing around with the IPs and who gets to own what and collect checks on which assets which in that case a company like Paradox could just end up saying it's cheaper to simply not pay them for anything, not consult the lawyers more, not use any of the assets done and start with a new property. I think that is more likely the case that behind the scenes HSL is trying to collect on what work they already accomplished, and as a result the company is just like "F it, we're starting over."

Which of course then again totally ♥♥♥♥♥ hardsuit because of who owns the WoD and V:tM IP rights as a whole, which could mean some of these assets or stories and characters never will see the light of day.

...free markets are all so tiresome sometimes. I've seen so many beautiful things, real works of art and culture, not only utterly ruined but lost for good because of multiple companies holding different portions of the IPcough Electronic Arts, cough Disney, cough Activision cough cough

[Hao Zhao]

BlackSun님이 먼저 게시:

Hao Zhao님이 먼저 게시:

You don't know what you're talking about and I suggest you go back and read the interviews from when Tyranny was originally announced. Tyranny and all of its content was 100% Obsidian, not Paradox. Paradox did very little publishing for this game. They marketed Tyranny and they distributed it.

You're also 100% wrong when it comes to Bloodlines 2. Paradox did not start this project. Hardsuit Labs came to Paradox with a tech demo they built and pitched it to Paradox. Paradox did not go to Hardsuit Labs.

You don't care that everything that comes out of your mouth is 100% factually incorrect. You're really mad at video games and you're not going to let a little thing, like the facts, get in the way of that.

You're one of the literally just two people I don't give a ♥♥♥♥ what you have to say about anything. You and that other guy who got banned ITT I saw arguing with other people and it's clear you're the worst posters here aside from ♥♥♥♥-post drive bys from the woke right, as I said previously the other ♥♥♥♥ poster being Zhao something or other.

This is a berserk tantrum but it's not a response to anything you quoted. I'll say it again. You are objectively wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about. You enjoy making things up for attention.

[Ash//Fox]

We aren't on HOI11, that's probably the main reason why. With EA and Activision they're well known not only for their downright predatory DLC practices but also spamming out new yearly or every other yearly releases for their most popular franchises with just about no thought put into the changes.

I don't really go for grand strategy games personally, but you can at least get Stellaris and all the DLC needed to make a decent game for not a horrible amount of money.

[Coffee Break Hero]

Hao Zhao님이 먼저 게시:

BlackSun님이 먼저 게시:

You're one of the literally just two people I don't give a ♥♥♥♥ what you have to say about anything. You and that other guy who got banned ITT I saw arguing with other people and it's clear you're the worst posters here aside from ♥♥♥♥-post drive bys from the woke right, as I said previously the other ♥♥♥♥ poster being Zhao something or other.

This is a berserk tantrum but it's not a response to anything you quoted. I'll say it again. You are objectively wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about. You enjoy making things up for attention.

han, please stop (telling people they want attention etc).
It's debatable who is to blame (obsidian or paradox) for the issues with tyranny's DLCs, but what's not debatable is that they had a lot of content that is reasonable to expect in a base game and feel cut.
would you be surprised if they released 1 clan with the expansion pack and 1 clan as a microtransaction like diablo 3 did?

[Hao Zhao]

Coffee Break Hero님이 먼저 게시:

Hao Zhao님이 먼저 게시:

This is a berserk tantrum but it's not a response to anything you quoted. I'll say it again. You are objectively wrong. You have no idea what you're talking about. You enjoy making things up for attention.

han, please stop (telling people they want attention etc).
It's debatable who is to blame (obsidian or paradox) for the issues with tyranny's DLCs, but what's not debatable is that they had a lot of content that is reasonable to expect in a base game and feel cut.
would you be surprised if they released 1 clan with the expansion pack and 1 clan as a microtransaction like diablo 3 did?

Inventing lies to justify being angry at a video game is definitely a case of attention seeking. The end. Period. Fact checking matters.

It is not debatable. Paradox only distributed and marketed Tyranny. That's not an opinion. It is a fact. Some people have a hard time telling the difference.

Paradox right out said that all clans in Bloodlines 2 will always be free. See? Fact checking in action.