TZIMISCE, SALUBRI AND RAVNOS ARE BACK!!

[Incarna]

https://www.dicebreaker.com/games/vampire-the-masquerade-v5/news/vtm-companion-free-supplement

[Incarna]

Първоначално публикувано от D-503:

I'm not claiming to be a Buddhist, but it's one facet of the teachings I agree with. The point is that most suffering comes from desire, and the evil things people do to fulfill said desires. Without excess desire (or desire for excess), people would have much less reason to harm each other.

Note that desire does not have to be only for tangible things, or obvious attractants, like power. It can also be the desire to simply harm others to watch them suffer. In other words, sadism. That's something the internet age has encouraged greatly, because the impersonal interactions bypass empathy that people should otherwise have, or at least be reminded of, in face-to-face interaction.

AFAIK the desire-suffering in buddhism isn't about people causing suffering to others in order to satisfy their desires, it is about suffering because of craving for things you lack. Also they distinguish pain from suffering so idk if people can make you suffer.

[Paparapa]

Hope that they bring something about Nagajara even that it is just on simple texts or side quests. Pisha is absolutely an eccentric and exotic character that give me curiosity about this bizzare and singular Clan.

[Hao Zhao]

Първоначално публикувано от GrandMajora:

Първоначално публикувано от The Lusty Argonian Maid:

Hope that they bring something about Nagajara even that it is just on simple texts or side quests. Pisha is absolutely an eccentric and exotic character that give me curiosity about this bizzare and singular Clan.

All of the 'clans of death' got merged together into the Hecate as of 5th edition.

For those who may not know, this includes the Giovanni, the Cappadocians, the Harbingers of Skulls, the Samedi, the Nagaraja and the Lamia.

They also lost their signature curses, and replaced them with the Giovanni's curse of having their bite inflict greater damage to the victim. Meaning the Nagaraja don't eat human flesh anymore, and the Cappadocians / Samedi don't look like rotting corpses anymore.

It's a change I am NOT happy with, because the Giovanni's bite was previously established to be a curse that the Lamia placed upon them as punishment for betraying the Cappadocians. So why the hell does the entire bloodline possess it, now?

To add onto that, the Cappadocians' curse that made them look like corpses was like the only thing that made them interesting. Why even distinguish between them and the Giovanni at all now?

[D-503]

Първоначално публикувано от GrandMajora:

None of that sounds particularly empathetic to me.


(Just to clarify, I'm not saying any of this with disdain or aggression towards you. I actually look forward to seeing your replies, as this philosophical discussion is both enlightening and educational.)

I feel like we should let the thread go back to normal, but I'll answer once more at least.

I mentioned children because, at a young age, no one should be inclined to harm any other living thing. Or themselves, either. Notice how suicide in children is virtually non-existent? Why do you suppose that is?

Most mental illnesses manifest post-puberty. Between the ages of 15 and 25, typically. While there are examples of children displaying psychotic behavior, they're a statistical minority. I deal in averages, not extremes. Any aberrant behavior can be exaggerated as a norm if taken out of statistical context.

Children are largely a clean slate; free of mental illness, and not yet fully conditioned to societal imprinting. Your mentioning of Spartan children is again an extreme and not indicative of average human norms. Any person can be conditioned to believe anything; that doesn't make it a psychological baseline.

Going back in time to show humanity's ethical coarseness also does not define the baseline. Under duress, people revert to animalistic tendencies (and worse, since people have sadism that animals lack). However, the general trend of humanity has been a slow transition to greater comfort derived from better technology, which in turn allows for introspection.

Even at their nadir of comfort, our primitive forebears still wasted time to create art. There are also examples of cavemen being found with old, crippling injuries; meaning they were taken care of for years before they died. These are glimmers of what a future would hold with less onerous living conditions.

From introspection comes idealism. Most people are naturally possessed of empathy; but they choose very often to ignore it (and mob psychology often contributes to this willful ignorance). Hence empathy is held up as an ideal; if it were not naturally occurring in us, we couldn't fabricate it no matter how hard we tried.

Don't get me wrong. I'm not an optimist. People are very often disgusting. But at the same time, I also don't believe in wallowing in pure misanthropy; that never ends well. There's a happy medium to everything.

[D-503]

Първоначално публикувано от Incarna:

AFAIK the desire-suffering in buddhism isn't about people causing suffering to others in order to satisfy their desires, it is about suffering because of craving for things you lack. Also they distinguish pain from suffering so idk if people can make you suffer.

You're correct.

But my point was simply that excess desire is the source of all avoidable problems; both those self-inflicted and inflicted by others.

Hunger is not avoidable; but problems caused by greed are largely avoidable. If people ever, you know, actually tried to suppress their greed.

[D-503]

Първоначално публикувано от GrandMajora:

Besides, I've actually forgotten HOW we started talking about this, in the first place.

Without going back to look, I believe this all started because I said Paths of Enlightenment ultimately couldn't keep vampires from falling to the Beast. They're a fun mechanic, but psychologically and philosophically flawed.

My logic is that self-serving actions empower the Beast (which is clearly a representation of some sort of primal evil that transcends a specific religion or belief system), and that abandoning humanity should always lead to the Beast's victory.

Likewise, the new V5 morality system in which people make up their own versions of ethical standards would also empower the Beast. All the circuitous reasoning in the world doesn't change the fundamental fact that the Beast is insanely selfish, and selfish actions feed it.

Obviously for mechanic reasons, the need for creepy elders in the story, and player freedom, the game rules allow for very low humanity and alternate morality Paths. But in reality, none of it would work against the Beast. That was, and remains, my point.

Note that I'm not restarting the debate here. Just a recap.

[D-503]

Първоначално публикувано от GrandMajora:

My only real complaint about them, however, is that their clan compulsion specifically drives them to violate the Tenets of Humanity, or encourage others to do so. This seems like a recipe for disaster, and makes it difficult for me to imagine how someone is supposed to play The Ministry long term, if they're constantly flirting with the Beast for control?

I have no clue.

I'm assuming a Ministry player is meant to be on the edge of falling to the Beast at all times, since sin is their raison d'être. Just reading a quick description though, it sounds like you only have to break a conviction/tenet once to satisfy the clan compulsion?

So it's pretty much a rule designed to force your character into getting a stain early in the chronicle. I guess rather than just starting off with a stain, you have to go through the motions for character development.

[D-503]

Първоначално публикувано от GrandMajora:

At the end of the chronicle, you roll a check to see if you lose any Humanity, and the more stains you have, the more difficult the check becomes.

Sounds correct based on what little I know, but I can't verify.

I finally got around to reading the free supplement.

The Ravnos make no sense to me. I understand the writers are emphasizing the trickster element of the clan, but there's no clear reasoning as to why the Ravnos want to be tricksters, or how they came to have powers of illusion (by blending Presence and Obfuscate). I don't know much/anything about the clan history, and only the vaguest details are given in the supplement.

Chimerstry as an amalgam feels weaker than the full Chimerstry from V20. It lacks the capacity for truly elaborate illusions.

The Tzimisce aren't changed much in clan themes. What I find really annoying is how Vicissitude works now, though. You can only change yourself (or someone else) up to as many dots as you have in Protean (an amalgam of that and Dominate make Vicissitude). Each self-change demands that you lose 1 dot from your physical attributes. A failed roll costs the dot with no gain. A botch would remove a dot from your Looks (beauty) merit as well as the attribute dot.

Seems extremely punitive to experimentation.

The Salubri seem changed the least. Unfortunately they're still described as being tiny in population.

[D-503]

Първоначално публикувано от GrandMajora:

The funny thing is, World of Darkness decided to nuke the Ravnos clan during the Week of Nightmares, because depicting a clan of Romani vampires as habitual criminals was deemed to be racist. BUT, they decided to nuke the EASTERN BRANCH of the clan!

Those living in the west managed to survive the Week of Nightmares, and continued on with their crime spree. While all the Ravnos who actually contributed a valuable service to society were exterminated! :-)

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2 - Pffff, ♥♥♥♥ NO! I had already assumed they were going to ruin the Tzimisce, but I hoped they wouldn't go that far with it!

What about Koldunic Sorcery? Is that still around, or did it get canned, too?

Yeah, I'd much rather have the demon hunter branch of Ravnos rather than the aimless troublemaker one we currently have.

Considering it's been rewritten, the Ravnos still remain one of the more pointless clans. The only thing interesting about them is their discipline combination: Animalism, Obfuscate, and Presence.

The V5 treatment of the Tzimsice, mechanics aside, isn't bad. It emphasizes the greedy dragon aspect of the clan's history. Instead of ruling over mostly depopulated eastern Euro rural areas, they're depicted as acting lordly anywhere: a city block, a cult, a military unit, etc. It's a minor twist on what we'd expect, to make them a little more flexible in modern times.

But there's no mention of Koldunic Sorcery. I can't think of a way it'd ever be included under V5 limitations. Maybe... an amalgam of Protean and Blood Sorcery?

The only thing the Tzimisce gained in V5 is that Earth's Vast Haven (previously a 9 dot power) is now a 5 dotter.

[D-503]

Първоначално публикувано от GrandMajora:

Ah, but not adapting to the modern times was the entire point of the Tzimisce.

If you want a clan who merely embodies leadership qualities, you already have that with Ventrue and Lasombra. Adding a 3rd clan to that mix is just getting redundant.

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I don't think Koldun would be a Protean amalgam, more likely it would involve a combination of Dominate and Blood Sorcery.

Koldunism involves enslaving the spirits of the land to your will, after all.

True about Tzimisce, but I don't mind doing whatever it takes to get them out of eastern Europe.

While the Ventrue are all about the appearance and application of power, and Lasombra love power for the sake of power, the Tzimisce really don't care about power outside of their little bubble of influence. They're far more tyrannical than Ventrue or Lasombra within their sphere of control, but are utterly indifferent to anything not directly affecting that sphere.

So that does make the Tzimisce pretty unique, still. I find the idea of a Tzimisce landlord (for instance) in a mediocre LA apartment building to be quite funny. Sure, it takes the mystique out of the clan, but... it might be worth it.

I'm still not saying I like V5 mechanics; but I don't see a problem with borrowing some ideas from it to reintegrate into a V20 framework.

My logic with Koldunic Sorcery was that abilities like Watery Haven (or whatever it's called) and the air one where the Tzimisce can move in/with the wind like a blur; those seem like Protean's Earth Meld.

But Dominate would certainly work as well, since more of the powers entail controlling the elements rather than becoming them.

The real problem with either amalgam combination, is that there's no way all the individual Koldunic abilities from each element could be included. That's the fundamental problem with all amalgams, be they of Dementation or Obtenebration or Chimerstry: they dumb down the selection from all those dedicated disciplines.

[D-503]

Първоначално публикувано от GrandMajora:

Even among the ranks of vampires, the Tremere's whole world revolves around blood. So a vitae addiction seems like the best idea for a replacement.

All good points. Agreed. It'd also be yet another reason for vampire society at large to hate/fear the Tremere. A more current, pressing reason beyond knowing how their clan was brought into being centuries ago.

Assamites always seemed more fitting as a bloodline, anyway, even in older editions of the game. Too specialized and narrow in focus to be a clan.

[Kruniac Zio]

Fleshy bois do not have Protean as a clan discipline.

Anyone who tells you different made a ♥♥♥♥♥♥ edition of VtM