Please be respectful of trans people

[Brian Orcus]

Unfortunately we live in a time when trans people are even more misunderstood than ever before. There are people telling people things about trans people that are in direct opposition to scientific understanding. This is because the truth about trans people is very inconvenient to politics. The effect of these lies on trans people are obvious, unavoidable, and detrimental.

Hardsuit Labs, you been lied to. And because of the lies you have been told you are on the verge of perpetuating this harm. I urge you to consult neurologist and other medical practitioners in the field of transition. Not politicians. Not gender studies majors. Not Tumbler. Doctors. Consult medical doctors.

I support trans representation. And I believe trans character options in RPGs have been a long time coming. But trans people need to be depicted accurately. It is now more important than ever.

Thank you.

[Thor]

Oh dear, I have a feeling that certain individuals here are gonna have a go at you for this bit of basic human decency.

This forum especially has seen a sudden surge of these types, ever since a certain amateur pundit claiming to be a "video game critic" started covering how SJW's are crawling out of the woodworks everywhere, with the sole purpose of ruining everything and attacking straight men.

I miss how calm and friendly it was in the VtM:B Steam discussions before said "critic" sent his legion of opinionated political minions, who haven't even played either tabletop, nor the previous video game.

[UnrealDelusion]

Originally posted by Brian Orcus:

Unfortunately we live in a time when trans people are even more misunderstood than ever before. There are people telling people things about trans people that are in direct opposition to scientific understanding. This is because the truth about trans people is very inconvenient to politics. The effect of these lies on trans people are obvious, unavoidable, and detrimental.

Hardsuit Labs, you been lied to. And because of the lies you have been told you are on the verge of perpetuating this harm. I urge you to consult neurologist and other medical practitioners in the field of transition. Not politicians. Not gender studies majors. Not Tumbler. Doctors. Consult medical doctors.

I support trans representation. And I believe trans character options in RPGs have been a long time coming. But trans people need to be depicted accurately. It is now more important than ever.

Thank you.

It's games. Nothing needs to be depicted like it is in real life. Games are supposed to be an escape from realism and a form of entertainment. Not a tool to spread propaganda and try to brainwash people.

[Malkav0]

Originally posted by Brian Orcus:

the truth

I like your approach, but as soon as you use this word, you might be making assumptions ^^ That aside, I have sympathy for your claim and of course respect is due to each individual as long as they're not doing harm. I'm pretty sure trans people are as misrepresented by politics as they are by gender-maniacs folks. I wish you luck !

[Apeironic_Entelechy]

You have given zero evidence or examples of how HSL has been lied to, all we know is that we'll have the option to pick pronouns. Thus your assumption that they're somehow presenting it in a pseudoscientific fashion is highly questionable, not to mention it makes your call for people to respect trans people seem rather suspect.

I don't see how one can respect Trans people if you automatically and knee-jerk reject a field of science or assume that the option to pick pronouns is somehow(?) evidence of a lack of concern about Trans people.

Yes, I agree that the existence of Trans people should be treated with respect. But I see absolutely no reason to assume that HSL isn't going to do that if their statements are anything to go by they seem to be dedicated to being inclusive and respectful.

Originally posted by UnrealDelusion:

Originally posted by Brian Orcus:

Unfortunately we live in a time when trans people are even more misunderstood than ever before. There are people telling people things about trans people that are in direct opposition to scientific understanding. This is because the truth about trans people is very inconvenient to politics. The effect of these lies on trans people are obvious, unavoidable, and detrimental.

Hardsuit Labs, you been lied to. And because of the lies you have been told you are on the verge of perpetuating this harm. I urge you to consult neurologist and other medical practitioners in the field of transition. Not politicians. Not gender studies majors. Not Tumbler. Doctors. Consult medical doctors.

I support trans representation. And I believe trans character options in RPGs have been a long time coming. But trans people need to be depicted accurately. It is now more important than ever.

Thank you.

It's games. Nothing needs to be depicted like it is in real life. Games are supposed to be an escape from realism and a form of entertainment. Not a tool to spread propaganda and try to brainwash people.

Games are art, to treat them purely as a means of escapism and cheap entertainment is massively selling them short not to mention disrespectful to the people who create them.

Bloodlines 1 was more then that, and I hope Bloodlines 2 is as well.

Furthermore, representing people who are not normally represented is not "brainwashing". It's called being inclusive, and allows for more respectful and interesting stories.

[Thor]

Originally posted by Malkav0:

gender-maniacs folks.

Are you sure you know enough about being transgender? These "gender-maniacs folks" that you speak of are likely transgender people who suffer from GD (gender dysphoria). Do you not find this a little insensitive?
I'm only guessing that you're misinformed.

But if I am wrong in my assumption... I may have misunderstood you explanation, but what would you claim that a "gender-maniac" would do or say?

[Malkav0]

Originally posted by Raizo:

Originally posted by Malkav0:

gender-maniacs folks.

Are you sure you know enough about being transgender? These "gender-maniacs folks" that you speak of are likely transgender people who suffer from GD (gender dysphoria). Do you not find this a little insensitive?
I'm only guessing that you're misinformed.

But if I am wrong in my assumption... I may have misunderstood you explanation, but what would you claim that a "gender-maniac" would do or say?

Sorry for the confusion, I was speaking about people thinking the concept of gender names solves all identity, social and psychological questions (while many of them are not even concerned). Gender studies are not universally acknowledged as science. Disorders are universally recognized, and by this I mean the aspect that leads to suffer, not the fact of prefering a specific behaviour ; more often than not, people (regardless of their identity) suffer in great part due to other people, in addition of any pain that may come from inside. Quite a bunch of trans people are cautious with the gender talk and all the noise around things like pronouns, as how they feel is deeper than a few statements. Like any person, if I dare say: human questionning about identity and comfort in society can be infinitely complex regardless of being trans or not ^^ Therefore I tend to think the best I can do is to not make a difference, treating everyone the same.
[and I can't say it's the "truth", it just felt right to me]

[Thor]

Originally posted by Malkav0:

Originally posted by Raizo:

Are you sure you know enough about being transgender? These "gender-maniacs folks" that you speak of are likely transgender people who suffer from GD (gender dysphoria). Do you not find this a little insensitive?
I'm only guessing that you're misinformed.

But if I am wrong in my assumption... I may have misunderstood you explanation, but what would you claim that a "gender-maniac" would do or say?

I was speaking about people thinking the concept of gender names solves all identity, social and psychological questions (while many of them are not even concerned)

Yeah? Who does that? Got any names or references? I can tell you that I've never met or heard about anyone like that.
I would really like to see who does this, and if there are some who does this, are there many?

Originally posted by Malkav0:

Quite a bunch of trans people are cautious with the gender talk and all the noise around things like pronouns

Yeah people are cautious about talking about it of course. Most often because they don't want negative attention or people to come and harass them about it.
It's in some cases this abuse that's been a cause for certain trans people ending up suffering from GD.
In a very simplified way you could compare it to gaslighting, making someone question their sanity, but instead making people question their identity.


But yes, I think your heart is in the right place on this one. You should indeed treat others equally, that's the point of this. The point is to generate acceptance and tolerance, not to encourage people to start empty their bank account and give it all to the nearest trans person in their area and call them "supreme leader"
Just treat others with some human decency. And if someone asks you nicely "Please call me he/she" then just do that and don't make a scene about it. All it is is being nice, you're not being subservient or losing anything.

[Wolfways]

I wasn't aware that transgender people were not represented in games. I mean, isn't the point of being transgender being able to change your gender?
If you're a trans-man you choose the male character. If you're trans-woman you choose the female character. Male or female, it's not difficult.
How exactly do you represent transgender "accurately"? Unless your character is going to get naked at some point they can have whatever genitals you imagine them having. If there are gay seduction options you have sexual interaction covered. Should transgender characters have depression?

If you're talking about treating transgender people fairly in the game then I'm against that. It's the World of Darkness. It's not supposed to be fair. Everyone gets ♥♥♥♥ on by everyone else.

[Apeironic_Entelechy]

I wasn't aware that transgender people were not represented in games. I mean, isn't the point of being transgender being able to change your gender?
If you're a trans-man you choose the male character. If you're trans-woman you choose the female character. Male or female, it's not difficult.
How exactly do you represent transgender "accurately"? Unless your character is going to get naked at some point they can have whatever genitals you imagine them having. If there are gay seduction options you have sexual interaction covered. Should transgender characters have depression?

Non-trans people are not trans, representing Trans people in games means having characters who are actually trans.

The option to play as cis characters is not a form of trans representration.

[Thor]

Wolfways I'm not too sure if you read more than the discussion title or understood OP.
Everything is explained in #1.

[Wolfways]

Originally posted by Fourthspartan56:

I wasn't aware that transgender people were not represented in games. I mean, isn't the point of being transgender being able to change your gender?
If you're a trans-man you choose the male character. If you're trans-woman you choose the female character. Male or female, it's not difficult.
How exactly do you represent transgender "accurately"? Unless your character is going to get naked at some point they can have whatever genitals you imagine them having. If there are gay seduction options you have sexual interaction covered. Should transgender characters have depression?

Non-trans people are not trans, representing Trans people in games means having characters who are actually trans.

The option to play as cis characters is not a form of trans representration.

So tell me the difference between a trans and non-trans character.

[Wolfways]

Originally posted by Raizo:

Wolfways I'm not too sure if you read more than the discussion title or understood OP.
Everything is explained in #1.

Yeah I read it.
It's about stuff that I probably can't mention here without getting a ban because "it's not pc" and because apparently fantasy beats reality these days.

My post was more just about the last paragraph.

[Apeironic_Entelechy]

Originally posted by Wolfways:

Originally posted by Fourthspartan56:

Non-trans people are not trans, representing Trans people in games means having characters who are actually trans.

The option to play as cis characters is not a form of trans representration.

So tell me the difference between a trans and non-trans character.

It's the difference between a trans person and a cis person, the former were born into the wrong sex while the latter where not.

If a character was born male or female and had a gender identity that aligned with one of those sexes then they're cisgendered and thus not represenative for transgendered people.

[Thor]

Originally posted by Fourthspartan56:

Originally posted by Wolfways:

So tell me the difference between a trans and non-trans character.

It's the difference between a trans person and a cis person, the former were born into the wrong sex while the latter where not.

I would like to correct that slightly. The devil is in the detail.
A trans person "can percieve" themselves as being born into the wrong sex, while indentifying as a gender atypical of their sex.
While some trans people are fine with the sex that they are born with but still indentify as a different gender.

Sex and gender are two separate things.
One describes what's between your legs, your chromosomes etc.
The other describes your indentity and to some extent how you should behave, social norms etc.

Originally posted by Wolfways:

Originally posted by Raizo:

Wolfways I'm not too sure if you read more than the discussion title or understood OP.
Everything is explained in #1.

Yeah I read it.
It's about stuff that I probably can't mention here without getting a ban because "it's not pc" and because apparently fantasy beats reality these days.

My post was more just about the last paragraph.

Don't be ridiculous. As long as you don't go about harassing people or breaking Steam forum's rules you can talk about what you like.
Don't make it seem like you're the poor victim of some grand persecution.

[Wolfways]

Originally posted by Fourthspartan56:

Originally posted by Wolfways:

So tell me the difference between a trans and non-trans character.

It's the difference between a trans person and a cis person, the former were born into the wrong sex while the latter where not.

If a character was born male or female and had a gender identity that aligned with one of those sexes then they're cisgendered and thus not represenative for transgendered people.

I said character. How would a transgender in game character differ frrom a normal male/female character?