Microsoft Flight Sim 2020 putting Dovertail to Shame

[Mitth'raw'nuruodo]

Remember all the sham justifications for microscopic routes and dead game world in TSW? I have been insulted and harassed by fanboys here for suggesting the use of procedural generation and open map data to render larger livelier game-worlds. See how its done.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tpf2XEzr76k

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ATahhemFbH0

Stop making excuses for lazy game development. Stop paying more for less.

I hope Microsoft makes a Train Simulator again, and make this fraudulent developer obsolete.

[Antti-san]

Microsoft also happens to be a multi-billion dollar tech giant, but of course, don't let that fact get in the way...

[Mitth'raw'nuruodo]

Yes... and I am sure they spend all their billions on developing a videogame.

[LeadCatcher]

Another troll bait discussion.... sure - size doesn’t matter — keep kidding yourself -

a small company has the same disposal resources to put toward game development as does Microsoft - afraid that doesn’t even pass a sniff test...

And Microsoft did put millions toward the development of FS2020

[Metallos]

Aerial pictures works for a flight simulator but not for a train simulator.
With a train you ride through the scenery and don't watch it only from above (except airports). Also you need much more object details because you are pretty close to them and that takes time and can't be generated, it's a huge difference if the object is 50 m next to you and you look at the side or you look down from 2000 ft (or 20000 ft) above the object.

(Metric / imperial mixed because flight levels are usually in ft and not m).

[Mitth'raw'nuruodo]

Yes.... and one contains the entire world, while the other can not be bothered to create a 100 mile strip of land.

It does not matter how big the publisher is. The price of the game reflects the time and manpower that is spent on the game.

It is not even developed by Microsoft. Its developed by Asobo studio, which has the same number of employees as Dovetail. So "small company" is another ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ excuse.

DTG asks for the same price as a big company, from a similar, if not larger number of players (verify on steamspy if you wish), but offers a microscopic fraction of the content.

Where is the money going?

[lwbainbridge]

Sorry, I can't agree with your point. It is really a comparison of apples to oranges. While Asobo Studio is a small studio, they are working as contractor to Microsoft. This means that they have a much larger bankroll to work with than Dovetail. They also have access to the massive infrastructure that Microsoft created in the Bing and Azure platform. They are able to access the massive amounts of Geodata that Microsoft has available. This is why you need a broadband connection for Flight Sim 2020.Then there are the differences in simulating flight and simulating rail as pointed out by Metallos.

Incidentally I'm not a fanboy attacking you because your criticizing my favorite game. I would agree that Dovetail has gotten lazy. This was supposed to be the next generation rail simulation platform and they have been doing little with it. Four years and we still do not have:

1. Steam physics - The diesel and and electric eras are fine but steam is what will make this simulation more complete.
   
   
2. Real content creation tools for third party developer both paid and free. There numerous third parties that have create fantastic content for the what 20 year old Microsoft train simulator! Why do we still, four years later, not have the ability to do this. Yeah, the say it's in the works and will come soon, and sorry the livery editor in TWS2 is just throwing us a bone.
   
   
3. Mutiplayer with a dispatcher position so groups of players can come together and simulate accurate railroad operations. This is something that is available in Open Rails and Run8 and should be available four years later in TSW.

I've looked at TSW2 and at this point I don't see anything that induces me to plunk my money down on the next release. I would like to see it move toward it's promise of being a simulator before I support it any further. But sorry that it doesn't provide an open world like MSF2020 is really low on my list, and don't think I'm alone on this

[JBVector]

Originally posted by lwbainbridge:

Sorry, I can't agree with your point. It is really a comparison of apples to oranges. While Asobo Studio is a small studio, they are working as contractor to Microsoft. This means that they have a much larger bankroll to work with than Dovetail. They also have access to the massive infrastructure that Microsoft created in the Bing and Azure platform. They are able to access the massive amounts of Geodata that Microsoft has available. This is why you need a broadband connection for Flight Sim 2020.Then there are the differences in simulating flight and simulating rail as pointed out by Metallos.

1. Steam physics - The diesel and and electric eras are fine but steam is what will make this simulation more complete.
   
   
2. Real content creation tools for third party developer both paid and free. There numerous third parties that have create fantastic content for the what 20 year old Microsoft train simulator! Why do we still, four years later, not have the ability to do this. Yeah, the say it's in the works and will come soon, and sorry the livery editor in TWS2 is just throwing us a bone.
   
   
3. Mutiplayer with a dispatcher position so groups of players can come together and simulate accurate railroad operations. This is something that is available in Open Rails and Run8 and should be available four years later in TSW.

I've looked at TSW2 and at this point I don't see anything that induces me to plunk my money down on the next release. I would like to see it move toward it's promise of being a simulator before I support it any further. But sorry that it doesn't provide an open world like MSF2020 is really low on my list, and don't think I'm alone on this

Yes, I would absolutely agree. Asobo is backed up with an almost guaranteed supply of money from one one the largest tech companies. Also wasn't it DTG who made FSX for Microsoft?

[Metallos]

Originally posted by JBVector:

Yes, I would absolutely agree. Asobo is backed up with an almost guaranteed supply of money from one one the largest tech companies. Also wasn't it DTG who made FSX for Microsoft?

No, it was Aces Studio. Also Aces Studio should do the 2nd MSTS 2 based on FSX engine but that project was cancelled and Aces Studio was closed by MS. The first MSTS 2 should be made by Kuju, who made the first MSTS.
DTG later licenced FSX for selling on Steam but the Steam version had disadvantages like incompatible addons, so the "original" FSX was the better choice.

[JBVector]

Originally posted by Metallos:

No, it was Aces Studio. Also Aces Studio should do the 2nd MSTS 2 based on FSX engine but that project was cancelled and Aces Studio was closed by MS. The first MSTS 2 should be made by Kuju, who made the first MSTS.
DTG later licenced FSX for selling on Steam but the Steam version had disadvantages like incompatible addons, so the "original" FSX was the better choice.

Ah ok. Not a fan of the kuji engine though, since Train Simulator isn't known for high end graphics.

[Digger_Was?]

Dont waste any Money in this Company till they deliver!!!

[JBVector]

Originally posted by Nobody:

Dont waste any Money in this Company till they deliver!!!

I mean, there definitely room for improvement, but they have delivered a lot. The game is a good game. I just don't think it's totally worth it to buy just a slight upgrade.

Originally posted by Mitth'raw'nuruodo:

It does not matter how big the publisher is. The price of the game reflects the time and manpower that is spent on the game.

It is not even developed by Microsoft. Its developed by Asobo studio, which has the same number of employees as Dovetail. So "small company" is another ****** excuse.

Where is the money going?

Big companies can afford to take a temporary loss by reducing the price simply because they can afford it, and it puts them on top. Look at Epic Games and Gaijin Entertainment. Often smaller companies have to mark up prices simply because they aren't making enough money to keep prices down! More money = more pay for workers. The more pay the workers get, the more hours they will put in.

Originally posted by Mitth'raw'nuruodo:

DTG asks for the same price as a big company, from a similar, if not larger number of players (verify on steamspy if you wish), but offers a microscopic fraction of the content.

True, But most game give you more than just 3 DLC's worth of content for $30. In the end, you'll be paying hundreds. Is TSW even anything without DLC???

[Yerolo]

If DTG could get away with running 1 single piece of track around the world not taking into account all the different operators, track guages, signalling systems, EMUs, DMUs, locomotives, overhead catenary styles , bridges, tunnels...the list goes on...then sure they could produce something to rival the scale of FS2020. Apples and oranges

The level of detail in FS2020 isn't perfect either, most of it is procedurally generated. Just watch any FS2020 videos showing Sydney Harbour for instance and note the lack of Sydney Harbour Bridge which is arguably one of Sydney's most well known iconic landmarks

[JBVector]

Originally posted by Yerolo:

If DTG could get away with running 1 single piece of track around the world not taking into account all the different operators, track guages, signalling systems, EMUs, DMUs, locomotives, overhead catenary styles , bridges, tunnels...the list goes on...then sure they could produce something to rival the scale of FS2020. Apples and oranges

The level of detail in FS2020 isn't perfect either, most of it is procedurally generated. Just watch any FS2020 videos showing Sydney Harbour for instance and note the lack of Sydney Harbour Bridge which is arguably one of Sydney's most well known iconic landmarks

DTG needs a system like Azure to map out and place scenery in the area In high quality. All they would need to do then is fill in the tracks and stations. They could even make a system that adds tracks automatically based on satellite data and defines the type of track/catenary style based on region. (One of the advantages of having a large company backing you). I'm less concerned about having a 1-on-1 replica of the route and more concerned about better graphics and more detail.

[Yerolo]

Originally posted by JBVector:

DTG needs a system like Asurze to map out and place scenery in the area In high quality. All they would need to do then is fill in the tracks and stations (One of the advantages of having a large company backing you).

The ground level detail in TSW is much greater than in FS2020.....which is fine because FS2020 is a flight sim and it can be excused as long as it looks great from a certain altitude (which it surely does).

Get closer to the ground in FS2020 and you start to see loss of detail such as missing landmarks, buildings not accurately produced (ie generic building of the same height is used instead of something that looks like the real thing)...this is the sort of things TSW cannot get away with as it is ground level which is also why comparing a flight sim to a train sim is just ludicrous.

Using Azure to map out landscape in a train sim if it then procedurally generates landmarks just would not work. Sure you would get the basic land formations but it fails at the finer detail due to just making representations of landmarks.

[JBVector]

Originally posted by Yerolo:

Using Azure to map out landscape in a train sim if it then procedurally generates landmarks just would not work. Sure you would get the basic land formations but it fails at the finer detail due to just making representations of landmarks.

Understood, however I think the smaller details could be done by hand.