Victoria 3

Victoria 3

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Meludan Mar 20, 2023 @ 5:59am
Why is this game balanced so poorly?
As in the title, this game is so horrible balanced, it's a joke and not even a good one.
You realize that especially as smaller countries.

You pay the exact same amount for your Gov Buildings like the big players.
The exact same amount per level.
This makes absolutely no sense in any way. It's like Ireland had the some gov expense like the US to keep things running. Seems like i forgot how a gvt works....

You need for every bulding the exact same number of pops. Doesn't matter if you're the size of Russia or the size of Belgium. There is no scaling to what is possible or not given the cirumstances of a country.

The costs of bureaucracy are insane for small countries to trade with others. Not only you're in disadvanteg because with no interest no trade, you pay the exact same amount in bureaucracy like anyone else.

The scaling of prestige is so absurd, you can't even catch up in any way.

As a small country some things are also completely irrelevant to you in the game. And some countries start with so big disadvantages ypu can't even play the game. You're just sitting there and waiting for.... nothing.

I thought this game should be a economy/demographics but it doesn't even hit the point of this. You have to work with absolute numbers instead of relative numbers that fit to your country and economy.

Or am i missing there something in the game?
Am i playing it wrong? Did i miss the mechanics/options in the game to improve that?
I'm able to change my mind and learn but in the current form this game is so tedious.
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Showing 1-13 of 13 comments
st0ne56 Mar 20, 2023 @ 6:11am 
When playing a small country SOL is king. Also Trade can work you have to try and make yourself the middle man for other countries goods like importing clothes to get them cheap enough that other countries export it from you as well to the point of increasing the import route ass long as you don't have free trade you will make money on the routes generally it should be a good you are already producing as well in order to help lower costs. If not of that is working then join a GPs market and corner it on a specific good. On a side note economies in real life aren't balanced and smaller countries should be harder unfortunately I would say Japan is one of the worst balanced and hardest since its almost impossible to achieve what they did historically in this Period within the same time frame
kgkong Mar 20, 2023 @ 6:38am 
You pay the exact same amount for your Gov Buildings like the big players.
The exact same amount per level.
This makes absolutely no sense in any way. It's like Ireland had the some gov expense like the US to keep things running. Seems like i forgot how a gvt works....

This bugs me but only a little bit. But scaling wages to nation size and population ratio would probably result in some odd calculations, and might potentially mess with how government wages work for smaller nations inside a larger market union.

The costs of bureaucracy are insane for small countries to trade with others. Not only you're in disadvanteg because with no interest no trade, you pay the exact same amount in bureaucracy like anyone else.

You're a small nation, you're not suppose to be evenly parred to a large nation with lots of ports and convoys and massive amounts of populations to produce goods for export. This also isn't a big issue for most who play small nations though as it helps these players establish a strong core economic industry, so when you join or leave other markets, you don't actually tank things as badly.

The scaling of prestige is so absurd, you can't even catch up in any way.

Not really. Pay attention. Don't forget to offset your economic buildings with some barracks and naval bases and capitialize on events that can reward or modify your prestige.
I have no issue what-so-ever myself taking any nation from the bottom of the list for prestige and by 1900 I'm competing with the top 10 nations for prestige and GDP (albeit I'm usually behind in GDP because I've built a barracks and navy and this doesn't grow GDP as quickly as pure industry).

As a small country some things are also completely irrelevant to you in the game. And some countries start with so big disadvantages ypu can't even play the game. You're just sitting there and waiting for.... nothing.

Each country as a semi-unique starting position (ignoring the lack of flavor). Texas is jammed beteween two big powers and starts off in the middle of a war with Mexico. Limited population and if you go independent you cripple your population growth compared to siding with either Mexico or the USA.

The USA starts with a number of states, some industrialized and most not. You have to manage to balance the economic situation while keeping pops from revolting over slavery or native affairs (though you can approach the slavery debate MANY MANY different ways and not just leave it to the scripted events).

Japan is isolated, overpopulated, totalitarian and closed off from progressive or liberalizing ideologies.

Russia is a similar position to the USA but more spread out, less industrialized and a bit more backwards. More raw natural resources though.

It's a lot more about understanding the starting situation of each country, seeing what resources they have, and seeing how your end-game plan for your nation can work with these starting limitations. You'll never grow Texas into an economic powerhouse if you don't accommodate for the limited population they start with.
Last edited by kgkong; Mar 20, 2023 @ 6:38am
Burma Jones Mar 20, 2023 @ 7:17am 
Because Paradox is publicly traded. They figure they can make more money cranking out braindead mobile games while riding out their reputation from games past. They do not make real strategy games anymore, it's all mindless cookie clicker garbage appealing to the lowest common denominator.
Great Powers don´t snowball because they are paying the same per government building (you actually pay less per building as an undeveloped nation, because government wages are based on the average wage of your country. Also, larger nations have to build more of them because bureacracy use for population and institutions is linear to population),
or because a building requires the same amount of workers for every country
(although that helps out larger countries a lot more than smaller countries).


They snowball that hard because they

-start with more buildings, therefore a massive headstart

-start with more tech, which means more efficient production methods for production buildings, military, government administration, universities, infrastructure and construction sectors, helpful modifiers like more minting and less interest rate, and access to more laws
-start with better laws already in place

which means they can use that headstart very efficiently to grow

-Great powers also get a reduced interest rate, so they can easily utilize deficit spending which can further increase growth, while lower powers and especially unrecognized powers have a higher increased interest rate.



And from a prestige perspective, there are benefits from being in the top 3 producers of a good, which further helps the more industrialized or for subsistence produced goods, the larger nations



There are some minor benefits for smaller nations, like the 5 free construction everyone gets, or not having to worry about the per state taxation capacity (while Qing loses an additional 70-80% of taxes earlygame even at positive bureaucracy)


But yeah, you aren´t really supposed to beat the great powers as an industrial and technological backwater.
Meludan Mar 20, 2023 @ 7:42am 
Originally posted by st0ne56:
When playing a small country SOL is king.
Wow, had SoL of 20 and didn't change anything in the game just a happy population for your laws.....

Also Trade can work you have to try and make yourself the middle man .......
Works only for some countries and beside you don't know if your neighbours will import or have an effect on that. Was the biggest producer for coffee and tabaco in the world. Noone ever cared to import from me so that i can have my fair share.

On a side note economies in real life aren't balanced .....
I know and this isn't what this is about. This is a game after all and even then this isn't balanced any way.

When playing a small country SOL is king.
Wow, had SoL of 20+ and didn't hange anything in the game just a happy population for your laws.....

Also Trade can work you have to try and make yourself the middle man .......
Works only for some countries and beside you don't know if your neighbours will import or have an effect on that. Was the biggest producer for coffee and tabaco in the world. Noone ever cared to import from me so thati have my fair share.

On a side note economies in real life aren't balanced .....
I know and this isn't what this is about. This is a game after all and even then this isn't balanced any way.


Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:
This bugs me but only a little bit. But scaling wages to nation size and population ratio would probably result in some odd calculations, and might potentially mess with how government wages work for smaller nations inside a larger market union.
This bugs me a lot. It's just bad game design/design choice of the devs.
It's their job to figure out how to tweak this or make a better approach rather then go the easy way and ruin some parts of the game.

You're a small nation, you're not suppose to be evenly parred to a large nation with lots of ports and convoys and massive amounts of populations to produce goods for export. This also isn't a big issue for most who play small nations though as it helps these players establish a strong core economic industry, so when you join or leave other markets, you don't actually tank things as badly.
No, this is true and i don't want to import everything all the time but when the AI never imports anything me from beside the fact that im the largest producer of sth and it cost nothing in my market, i'll have to export the stuff manually and this tanks my economy.
Why does it need this horrible interest system to start trade? That is a really dumb mechanic.

Not really. Pay attention. Don't forget to offset your economic buildings with some barracks and naval bases and capitialize on events that can reward or modify your prestige.
I have no issue what-so-ever myself taking any nation from the bottom of the list for prestige and by 1900 I'm competing with the top 10 nations for prestige and GDP (albeit I'm usually behind in GDP because I've built a barracks and navy and this doesn't grow GDP as quickly as pure industry).
The events happen rarely and to affort this size of military you need a very healthy economy which is as lower country absurd due to missing pop and money.
This would be fine if you didn't need the Prestige to get some interest to start trade. This is an effect on a fundamental idea of an economic sim that is simply just bad.

Each country as a semi-unique starting position (ignoring the lack of flavor).....
Yeah the lack of flavour is another aspect that ruins it for me also.
I know what you mean and i don't want to produce everything all the time. But some countries have a so massive disadvantage.
Take Chile for example. You start with -20(!) Infra due to the Andes. You have nothing positiv for that. You're very limited in your infrastructure and need the railways asap. This would be okay if the building time wasn't so absurd long that you're sitting there and waiting for nothing. You can't do anything as long as you're waiting for completion.

In comparsion to GB you slap Railways everywhere so you don't have this problem. I've seen GB plastered with up to 30 railways in every region, this is hilarious.

I think they've never tested some parts of their game on other countries beside the big players. I can't explain this otherwise.
Last edited by Meludan; Mar 20, 2023 @ 7:45am
Originally posted by alexander.julian.erhard:
But yeah, you aren´t really supposed to beat the great powers as an industrial and technological backwater.

Well, at least if you are sufficiently far enough behind, like <5 total starting techs, no starting buildings and low population I mean.

Or if it is your first game.

If you know what you are doing, turning one of the top 50 or maybe even 100 to a Great Power is probably still possible
Meludan Mar 20, 2023 @ 8:00am 
Originally posted by alexander.julian.erhard:
Great Powers don´t snowball because they are paying the same per government building (you actually pay less per building as an undeveloped nation, because government wages are based on the average wage of your country. Also, larger nations have to build more of them because bureacracy use for population and institutions is linear to population),
or because a building requires the same amount of workers for every country
(although that helps out larger countries a lot more than smaller countries).
Is this so? Haven't noticed this.
Playing as a larger country I never had any bureaucracy issues due to the fact to just slap another gov building in the city. Didn't matter at the point. But why you need the amount of people to run the building in every country?
This is just an side effect on this terrible idea of having an interest in a region to trade.
And if the AI doesn't want to trade (regardless of their massive need) i must set up the trade route
Once i had a trade of coffee to the US which brought me 2.5k!
I had to set up the trade because the US didn't even care to do anything about that.

They snowball that hard because they

.......
It's not the snowball for me, i don't want to overpower the big players.
I have other intentions for my country.
And the first constructions are free? Where did i miss the note?
Last edited by Meludan; Mar 20, 2023 @ 8:02am
kgkong Mar 20, 2023 @ 8:05am 
No, this is true and i don't want to import everything all the time but when the AI never imports anything me from beside the fact that im the largest producer of sth and it cost nothing in my market, i'll have to export the stuff manually and this tanks my economy.
Why does it need this horrible interest system to start trade? That is a really dumb mechanic.

If you produce an excess of a good, don't sit around and wait for the AI to choose to import it from you. Export it yourself. Even if it's not profitable necessarily right away to export a good to another nation, you kind of force a snowballl situation where the surplus the nation gets from your goods forces them to utilize the low prices they get, so they drive up their own demand and next thing you know your autonomous investment sector is funding and building all the industry upgrades to keep up with the continually growing demand as your trade export levels up.

As to your prestige claim, you really gotta slam down 10 naval bases and barracks at least every 5 to 10 years or you will let yourself be outpaced. (More so the barracks but navy helps a lot) You can also focus on becoming a dominant producer of a good to gain prestige. So if you have an abundant access to any one resource, stack that up so you're a top producer of the good and export the crap out of it to everybody. Plays back into my last paragraph and you get a nice loop of growth going. Also by exporting this good to the whole world, you reduce the likelihood of them producing the good and potentially stealing the top spot for top producer.
Last edited by kgkong; Mar 20, 2023 @ 8:07am
Meludan Mar 20, 2023 @ 8:17am 
Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:
If you produce an excess of a good, don't sit around and wait for the AI to choose to import it from you. Export it yourself....
I don't wait for that to happen, i'll export by myself. Even if i export to another country the other with the same need don't even care beside their need. But if i export sth, i'm cutting myself for import of things i need. And the bureaucracy deficit hurts really hard as a small country.
The AI is beahving very horrible in some terms.
The world (or at least some regions) are in heavy need of sth? Nobody wants to produce it even when there is heavy profit in it. And i can't produce it myself in this amount so i'm kinda screwed.

As to your prestige claim, you really gotta slam down 10 naval bases and barracks at least every 5 to 10 years or you will let yourself be outpaced.....
This much? This is absurd. Especially if you have to pay the wages and the construction time for that. If they would get rid of this interest system for trade i wouldn't care because i don't have to get prestige to get some interest just to start trading.
kgkong Mar 20, 2023 @ 8:36am 
I don't wait for that to happen, i'll export by myself. Even if i export to another country the other with the same need don't even care beside their need. But if i export sth, i'm cutting myself for import of things i need. And the bureaucracy deficit hurts really hard as a small country.
The AI is beahving very horrible in some terms.
The world (or at least some regions) are in heavy need of sth? Nobody wants to produce it even when there is heavy profit in it. And i can't produce it myself in this amount so i'm kinda screwed.

It's hit or miss, but you shouldn't be mass producing that many different goods and exporting to literally everyone at level 1 trade routes. Export to major markets first (Austria, USA, France, GB) and the demand in those markets will quickly level up your trade exports as long as you have adequate convoys.

This much? This is absurd. Especially if you have to pay the wages and the construction time for that. If they would get rid of this interest system for trade i wouldn't care because i don't have to get prestige to get some interest just to start trading.
It's not that absurd, but yes, having an equipped military is going to be costly regardless. There are other benefits to having a military besides the prestige though. You are seen as more threatening/meaningful so the AI is less likely to be overtly aggressive against you assuming you play a relatively economic focus. You also don't need to have the best equipment period for the military. It helps but not always necessary. And being able to supplement some of your military goods yourself and not rely on imports is crucial as well.

The actual government and construction costs are also managed if you're also building your industries with a degree of self-sustainability in mind. Minimal imports. And make sure you have the appropriate social tech researched to maximize your bureaucracy so you can afford the trade routes and ensure you have legislation that allows for the lowest institution costs.

There's really no simple easy win approach. Focusing any amount on one area of your nation will have some kind of cost factor impacting others. So you gotta figure out how to balance these as you go. Don't expand industry too fast, don't grow military too fast, but don't forget to overlook other areas (SoL management, employment/skills, government clout and radicalization etc). Something is gonna have to cost you extra somewhere, but if the cost to maintain a reasonably smaller size military to the rest of the world is too expensive for you, then it sounds like you're inefficiently managing your resources or you're in a nation where you have to make more use of other nation's markets due to a lack of fundamental goods for industries you need.
Meludan Mar 20, 2023 @ 8:58am 
Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:
It's hit or miss, but you shouldn't be mass producing that many different goods and exporting to literally everyone at level 1 trade routes. Export to major markets first (Austria, USA, France, GB) and the demand in those markets will quickly level up your trade exports as long as you have adequate convoys.
I'm not mass producing everything and exporting it everywhere. Just one or two things i can produce in noticeable amount and export to the best values (which is to 99,9% GB, Germany, France and so on)
Even if i switch because Russia pays somehow way better now, the AI doesn't do anything to start an import on their own. They need it, i have it. But the AI simply doesn't care.

It's not that absurd, but yes, having an equipped military is going to be costly regardless...
That is understandable but not my point. I don't have that much of a problem with wars all the time in some regions. This is most likely Europe and North America where they're hitting their faces all the time.

The actual government and construction costs are also managed if you're also building your industries with a degree of self-sustainability in mind.....
Oh, i have that in mind. But the devs made that very tedious with their construction system. One by one and very long and very expensive. Especially if you don't have the ressources to build your own tools etc.
And the import of that resources is way too hard. So here we are again, where we started.


There's really no simple easy win approach. Focusing any amount on one area of your nation will have some kind of cost factor impacting others....
This is sure with the regional effects, but this affects larger countries way more then the small ones.
I finished my first complete playthrough as Uruguay (after starting so many other runs but never finished one). And holy hell, this was so boring.
Had #1 SoL with ~21 #1 Literacy with ~92%
Managed to get the most equal rights for everyone but beside that? Nothing.
In tech I wasn't even close to the rest of the world, my industry was most likely self sufficent, no great modern tech or anything or conquered complete South America.
Not that this was my intention but the game limited me so hard to that, there was no other option for me to do anything else and this I can do the same with cookie clicker games.
shadain597 Mar 20, 2023 @ 10:09am 
I do think that the way trade and infrastructure are designed feel like the devs only playtested larger nations. Even there, larger nations still need to rush railroads.
kgkong Mar 20, 2023 @ 10:51am 
Originally posted by shadain597:
I do think that the way trade and infrastructure are designed feel like the devs only playtested larger nations. Even there, larger nations still need to rush railroads.
That's dependent on how you're able to manage your populations within the states you have. Though some nations may need railroads rushed due to the particular starting conditions and already being mostly developed up and smaller overall.

More or less, I gotta rush railroads only when I can't grow my population equal to my economic growth. The other time is when gold fields are discovered in a state since they eat a lot of infrastructure.

Railroads do become important if I'm attempting to bolster a colony or an underdeveloped state that is low on pops or I've already siphoned pops from for my core states.
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Date Posted: Mar 20, 2023 @ 5:59am
Posts: 13