Different Prices in Different States, but Same Market?

[Team Triss]

Hi guys,

Really struggling to wrap my head around this game, so some tips or explanations here would be really appreciated.

Trying again with a fresh start after 1.1 release with Learn2Play Chile (hoping to actually make something out of it before trying elsewhere), and I'd like to drive the price of wood down in Chile. Obviously, the way to do this is by importing it, or by expanding the production of my logging camps.

So here's the issue. I have three states as Chile I can build in. Two of them, Santiago and Araucania, have essentially the same predicted outcomes if I was to build a new logging camp there. Los Rios, a place where I currently have a level 2 logging camp, doesn't appear to see the same benefit of expanding to a level 3 camp compared to building one from scratch elsewhere, and I can't figure out why.

First, Los Rios:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2900178304

Why is the predicted earnings per week different between those two screenshots? I can see why it would incur a loss, I would spend more on tools and labor and absolutely tank the price of wood, so even selling more it won't recoup the new cost.

However, in Santiago:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2900178317

Again the predicted earnings differ between those two screenshots, but here it shows it would be profitable because adding the wood to the market doesn't tank the price there and results.

The question is, why are those two nested tooltips different from each other (predicted earnings and predicted earnings), and why is the price of tools and wood after expansion different from building in one state versus the other? I'm vaguely away of the local vs greater market, but I don't know of any way to check the local market conditions, and both places have spare infrastructure and 100% market access (Santiago is the capital of the market). If I have 100% market access, what gives?

Thanks, appreciate any help.

[teron]

If you click on the state it will show the market access %. Low market access warnings also show in the notice window circle at the top, it being the one with the 6! saying it is giving you 6 alerts.

Also keep in mind that every building after the first in an industry gives a though put bonus to output.

[Team Triss]

Originally posted by teron:

If you click on the state it will show the market access %. Low market access warnings also show in the notice window circle at the top, it being the one with the 6! saying it is giving you 6 alerts.

Also keep in mind that every building after the first in an industry gives a though put bonus to output.

That's the thing, I said in the OP I don't have low market access. Market access is 100%.

[kgkong]

Originally posted by LoR Team Triss:

Originally posted by teron:

If you click on the state it will show the market access %. Low market access warnings also show in the notice window circle at the top, it being the one with the 6! saying it is giving you 6 alerts.

Also keep in mind that every building after the first in an industry gives a though put bonus to output.

That's the thing, I said in the OP I don't have low market access. Market access is 100%.

Take a screenshot of the good in question, from the market window where you can see the good prices across your states. Then take a screenshot of your state overview for both your states.
If market access isn't the issue, there's something else causing your one state to not have 100% access to goods at your national price. Since it's connected to your capital state through a land connection, the only way you wouldn't have 100% market access is to be over infrastructure limit or overpopulated. But if it's a new game and year start for Chile, this isn't overpopulation. Overextending infrastructure is quite possible though, as gold fields add a heavy weight to infrastructure and there's a few of those in Santiago as well as Santiago being developed up some what. Early game you won't have that high of an infrastructure cap and when gold fields show up, you can quickly skyrocket over your limit and kill market access.

[Team Triss]

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

Originally posted by LoR Team Triss:

That's the thing, I said in the OP I don't have low market access. Market access is 100%.

Take a screenshot of the good in question, from the market window where you can see the good prices across your states. Then take a screenshot of your state overview for both your states.
If market access isn't the issue, there's something else causing your one state to not have 100% access to goods at your national price. Since it's connected to your capital state through a land connection, the only way you wouldn't have 100% market access is to be over infrastructure limit or overpopulated. But if it's a new game and year start for Chile, this isn't overpopulation. Overextending infrastructure is quite possible though, as gold fields add a heavy weight to infrastructure and there's a few of those in Santiago as well as Santiago being developed up some what. Early game you won't have that high of an infrastructure cap and when gold fields show up, you can quickly skyrocket over your limit and kill market access.

Thanks, took me a moment to find but it's good to know that info is there.

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2900208055
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2900208033
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2900208043

The price is equalized across the three states, and some time has passed since I took the screenshots in the OP, but here's the latest numbers:
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2900208643
https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2900208630

Same issue, but local price is the market price because both have spare infrastructure and 100% market access.

[kgkong]

Gotcha. I see entirely what you're looking at.

So there's overhead expenses that will inflate with an industry as it levels up over time. So many employees, gotta have more middle management to oversee them, type of a factor here. I've not looked into the exacts of it but that's how I treat this.
Wage competition in different states is also a factor as well.
There's also the different rate of wages for employment in unincorporated states as well, which will increase those green values you're seeing for earnings in the state that is unincorporated.

The earnings that are shown when you go to build or upgrade are predicted earnings. They're not exact but a good idea. Usually as you get building up an industry in a state, in order to get it fully employed they might have to raise wages a little. But the predicted earnings are usually based on the productivity of the building, which uses the wage average.

I just use the values for the predicted earnings given as indicators of "good, better, best, worse, worst" type choices for prioritizing where and what to build.

So the goods are all the same price, just cause you're close to infrastructure limit keep an eye on that.

[Team Triss]

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

Gotcha. I see entirely what you're looking at.

So there's overhead expenses that will inflate with an industry as it levels up over time. So many employees, gotta have more middle management to oversee them, type of a factor here. I've not looked into the exacts of it but that's how I treat this.
Wage competition in different states is also a factor as well.
There's also the different rate of wages for employment in unincorporated states as well, which will increase those green values you're seeing for earnings in the state that is unincorporated.

The earnings that are shown when you go to build or upgrade are predicted earnings. They're not exact but a good idea. Usually as you get building up an industry in a state, in order to get it fully employed they might have to raise wages a little. But the predicted earnings are usually based on the productivity of the building, which uses the wage average.

I just use the values for the predicted earnings given as indicators of "good, better, best, worse, worst" type choices for prioritizing where and what to build.

So the goods are all the same price, just cause you're close to infrastructure limit keep an eye on that.

Wage differences in the unincorporated state doesn't explain why Santiago is different, though. It's almost like the game doesn't encourage leveling up but spreading the same thing across multiple states... I don't know, I didn't expect to be a master after 25 hours but this is the first Paradox game to make me feel so utterly lost this far into it.

[kgkong]

I'm playing a single state game at the moment so I can't look more into.

I know there's a stacking "penalty" from having a larger industry size. The same goes with barracks and military costs. And construction sectors. It's more so just a cost-efficiency thing. It might actually be the throughput bonus actually, because throughput does produce more goods in the end, but it increases the goods consumed.

I have a level 10 Textile Mill right now. It has +9% throughput. Core costs the input is 100 silk, dye and tools and 500 fabric. It costs the overhead more in goods because it's consuming 9% more with 109 silk, dye and tools and 545 fabric. But I get 9% more output, without increasing wages or employment count. Sometimes as you get producing more in mass, you can begin to lose cost efficiency with the raising demand and price of the input goods.

The earnings is also adjusted by the change in supply-demand and price of the output good on full employment. So as you increase an industry in one state, that will also lower the output goods price gradually.

[Oberon]

Originally posted by LoR Team Triss:

Hi guys,

Really struggling to wrap my head around this game, so some tips or explanations here would be really appreciated.

Trying again with a fresh start after 1.1 release with Learn2Play Chile (hoping to actually make something out of it before trying elsewhere), and I'd like to drive the price of wood down in Chile. Obviously, the way to do this is by importing it, or by expanding the production of my logging camps.
.....

Thanks, appreciate any help.

I think that the prediction tool consider the lost of profit for the industry due to more production=lower pricer. But it consider only the buildings of the state you are building in; it doesn't consider the effect on the buildings of all your nation.
So it seems that building in a state without the same industry it's more profitable than building in a state with for example 30 of it...

[Midas]

There is also a local usage modifier. Loggs are used by your local pops, so if you build your first camp there, some stuff isnt exported, but localy used for pop needs. Also beeing connected to the local market doesnt mean beeing connected. Look at japan for example, some areas are "connected" but still need a harbour to be connected.

In your case this applies. Expanding doesnt beenefit the local pops, so the level 0 - 1 Structure etc, has always a higher reward, compared to the market, if the local pop consumes it. But that works for all goods, cause they also have to pay a "transport" fee even if this is hiddden.

Have you also checked the production methodes, perhaps the logging camp produces only loggs/ or planks also and this explains it, build it, than look at it and compare it
-

[Dave Reckoning]

My understanding is that the difference is due (at least in part) to the differences in local sale price of wood in each state.

Local sale price of wood varies by state due to differences in local (i.e. within-state) production and usage of wood, in each state.

Local production and usage varies by what buildings / construction you have in each state, and by the number and standard of living (i.e. strata) of pops, in each state.

There may possibly be other factors involved, but I'm not sure there are.

[kgkong]

Originally posted by Dave Reckoning:

My understanding is that the difference is due (at least in part) to the differences in local sale price of wood in each state.

Local sale price of wood varies by state due to differences in local (i.e. within-state) production and usage of wood, in each state.

Local production and usage varies by what buildings / construction you have in each state, and by the number and standard of living (i.e. strata) of pops, in each state.

That only comes up when there's market access issues as far as I've ever noticed. The only times my goods have multiple prices across multiple states is when 1 or more states has infrastructure or market access challenges.

[Dave Reckoning]

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

Originally posted by Dave Reckoning:

My understanding is that the difference is due (at least in part) to the differences in local sale price of wood in each state.

Local sale price of wood varies by state due to differences in local (i.e. within-state) production and usage of wood, in each state.

Local production and usage varies by what buildings / construction you have in each state, and by the number and standard of living (i.e. strata) of pops, in each state.

That only comes up when there's market access issues as far as I've ever noticed. The only times my goods have multiple prices across multiple states is when 1 or more states has infrastructure or market access challenges.

Hey KingGorillaKong, that will certainly do it, I agree. But take a closer look and I believe you'll see variations in sale prices across states, even when market access is 100% in both. I'm certainly seeing that in my save. It's a small effect if the two states have a lot of buildings and production, but it seems to be a bigger difference if the number of logging camps in a state is low.

Perhaps see if you can load up an old multi-state save and check it out?

Someone'd probably have to look at the code to be sure.

Cheers, Dave

[kgkong]

Originally posted by Dave Reckoning:

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

That only comes up when there's market access issues as far as I've ever noticed. The only times my goods have multiple prices across multiple states is when 1 or more states has infrastructure or market access challenges.

Hey KingGorillaKong, that will certainly do it, I agree. But take a closer look and I believe you'll see variations in sale prices across states, even when market access is 100% in both. I'm certainly seeing that in my save. It's a small effect if the two states have a lot of buildings and production, but it seems to be a bigger difference if the number of logging camps in a state is low.

Perhaps see if you can load up an old multi-state save and check it out?

Cheers, Dave

I can take a look.
But I'll have to take a look after I finish my Krakow game (or when I get a second state after I can break free from Austria).

[xXBulletJusticeXx]

I'm very inexperienced in this game, but am enjoying it thus far. first playthrough is Switzerland which starts with like 5 states (i think).

When trying to expand my Iron production, I ran into a similar issue. To solve it, I first increased the Tools market. The cost for tools to produce the Iron that I initially wanted, far outpaced the prices of Iron. The more Iron I produced, the cheaper the Iron became, but the cost of Tools kept going up.

Also. The Throughput bonus of expanding a building type in an existing market is also going to effect prices slightly.

Lastly, national income is directly proportional to the income of the workers. Meaning, if there is not enough workers to actually make a site profitable, then no workers will be working, thus no income. You need to make sure that the Productivity is higher than average wages, or the 'Building' in question will operate at a loss, and thusly NOT be able to pay wages, thusly you will not make money off the taxes of said wages.

Subsidizing the Building in question, until the market stabilizes, and more people are trained in the tools/machinists positions (depending on your Production Methods of the region) can help jump-start the economy. Just remember stop subsidizing when you don't need it to be, so that when markets fluctuate normally you don't end up paying for it from the coffers.

[Dave Reckoning]

Just for clarity, Production Methods will of course also potentially change the cost of production, as you might be using more tools, transportation, electricity etc. in a building if you're using more advanced PMs.

If you're building your very first building of a type in a state, then I think it assumes the initial PM will be the basic one.