In this game communism actually works, so It´s an inaccurate simulation.

[Maximvs]

In this game communism actually works, not only in a democratic way but also in an economic way.

In reality it failed miserably in both, democracy and human rights and more so in economic efficacy and efficiency.

The problem I see is that this game threat marxists "political theories" or " political ideas" as they were laws of nature. As an example, in theory theocratic goverments should be the perfect goverment, because "is the goverment of god" what´s more perfect than that ? well... the reallity doesn´t work like demagogues, power mongerers or just naive people say or belive it works.

In a communism Economy is stagnant and desicions need a lot of burocratic layers: as an example to fire or hire a worker is not as "easily" as in a private factory, also to move a businness or change production ( make chairs instead of tables ) or slaughter more or less animals, even cut a tree, all the controls, forms, autorization to change or innovate even in emergency situation relies in some sort of burocratic control and accountable. Even change a truck tire ( buy the new one)

All of this make corruption rampart, and people working behind and parallell to the system, somethimes just no taking decicions for the fear of punisment or plain fatigue of burocratic work.

As an example China was pretty poor until it change the system towards a more liberal economic system ( while not full liberal, in game cound be interventionist) same for Vietnam, and all eastern ex-Russian satellite countries.

Cuba and North Korea are the only communist economies today and the results are pretty lean and obvious.

It´s hard to represent corruption, stagnation, autocraric despotism and plain stupidity in game. So for a " solution " for this I would suggest the following:

All factories and production buildings consumes bureaucracy. As all productive decicions are taken from goverment top to bottom and then the response have to go from bottom to top it required a lot of bureaucrats.

Efficiency of factories and RGO should be seriously diminished by default (underproduction, ineffciency, plain steal, politicking ) If you want to avoid this you should use an Autoritary decree ( a new one) or pay a burocratic cost.

That´s a solution for the game as it´s current game system works, it represent, more or less, the "historical materialism" de facto, and all humans in game are honest, robots and predictable in it tastes and decicions.

[sammwich]

Автор сообщения: cegelnik-roma

Weird discussion to be honest. Historians and economists debate all the time about whether communism will be efficient, or not, since the birth of this ideological trend. Some even say it's innevitable. In our time we know for sure, that socialism works, just because there was USSR, which was 2-nd economy of the world for some time, which is nothing to scoff at. It's actually impressive, how soviets managed to build something like this from rural country, in which more than 3/4 of population couldn't even read.
So, saying outright that communism doesnt work is actually inaccurate, it remains to be seen. It's effectivness is still a matter for debate.

This argument requires ignoring the Keynesian policies of the early Soviet economy and the post WWII stagnation. No one seriously argues that Keynesian investment doesn't work.

[Asp]

gommunism can't be good in my bideo gamez!!!!!!!

[Fyre]

Автор сообщения: Asp3rg3r

gommunism can't be good in my bideo gamez!!!!!!! :goobert:

Basically, I just can't believe this thread still has people crying in it. Was hoping for a better laugh but it's just making me depressed.

[Lagom Lite]

Автор сообщения: Easterner

Almost 50 million people died in USSR due to communist policies and many more were enslaved in concentration camps. Then you add an additional 60 million dead due to chinese reforms and you've got the biggest number of deaths in the shortest spans of time.

Don't start counting bodies for capitalism, whatever you do.

And just a heads up - while you're absolutely right that millions have died in PR China and USSR due to terror, prison conditions and outright mismanagement, you shouldn't use Stephane Courtois' heavily criticized "Black Book of Communism" for the exact numbers. if you want to seem intellectually honest.

[RandyNewman]

Автор сообщения: Lagom Lite

Автор сообщения: Easterner

Almost 50 million people died in USSR due to communist policies and many more were enslaved in concentration camps. Then you add an additional 60 million dead due to chinese reforms and you've got the biggest number of deaths in the shortest spans of time.

Don't start counting bodies for capitalism, whatever you do.

And just a heads up - while you're absolutely right that millions have died in PR China and USSR due to terror, prison conditions and outright mismanagement, you shouldn't use Stephane Courtois' heavily criticized "Black Book of Communism" for the exact numbers. if you want to seem intellectually honest.

It's weird, cuz when you're talking about... millions dying... there's usually an enormous amount of info you can find about it, and then share with people. Like, when you're talking about a systemic slaughter, genocide, intentional famines... millions dead... usually everything that should be present when this would happen is there, and you can easily find it.

What do I mean?
I mean, like, quotes from authority figures (some of them even published their own books talking about their intentions! and they used terms like Judeo-Bolshevism).
Paperwork from administrative agencies, and info about how they were organized. They usually create A LOT of paperwork!
Census data! Gee, that's an important one, isn't it?
Physical evidence. That could be a location, or a building/facility of some kind. Sometimes these places pre-date the events being described. Turns out "pogroms" had been present in parts of the East for a very long time.

Every single puzzle piece that *should* be there, is there. Even when someone made a MAJOR effort to cover them up, but... they're still there. You can look them up yourself! You can try to get an idea of what actually happened!

...I don't hear any of that.
I hear someone treat words like they mean anything. They just say... millions dead... like saying that gives them a blank check, and then they just bully someone. I certainly don't think they care about... millions dying...

I'm pretty sure it's cuz they're just bullies.

[VoiD]

Автор сообщения: sammwich

Автор сообщения: cegelnik-roma

Weird discussion to be honest. Historians and economists debate all the time about whether communism will be efficient, or not, since the birth of this ideological trend. Some even say it's innevitable. In our time we know for sure, that socialism works, just because there was USSR, which was 2-nd economy of the world for some time, which is nothing to scoff at. It's actually impressive, how soviets managed to build something like this from rural country, in which more than 3/4 of population couldn't even read.
So, saying outright that communism doesnt work is actually inaccurate, it remains to be seen. It's effectivness is still a matter for debate.

This argument requires ignoring the Keynesian policies of the early Soviet economy and the post WWII stagnation. No one seriously argues that Keynesian investment doesn't work.

The question is: For how long?

Creating a debt spiral without concern for the economy is not a long term solution for anything, ant the collapse of these nations might be on a scale different from everything we've ever seen in history.

Also, just to point this out, the USSR was never the "2nd world economy", it didn't even reach 10% of the US economy, which is exactly why it collapsed, after all the propaganda was said and done there was nothing holding it together from the inside.

[RandyNewman]

Автор сообщения: Easterner

Автор сообщения: cegelnik-roma

Weird discussion to be honest. Historians and economists debate all the time about whether communism will be efficient, or not, since the birth of this ideological trend. Some even say it's innevitable. In our time we know for sure, that socialism works, just because there was USSR, which was 2-nd economy of the world for some time, which is nothing to scoff at. It's actually impressive, how soviets managed to build something like this from rural country, in which more than 3/4 of population couldn't even read.
So, saying outright that communism doesnt work is actually inaccurate, it remains to be seen. It's effectivness is still a matter for debate.

All of the developments of USSR can be attributed to humanity developing as a whole and living standards improving worldwide.
If you take that into account, then soviets were a complete failure and the LSs in Soviet Union were advancing at a much slower pace than the rest of the world.

Judeo-communism is a genocidal ideology that should be illegal to promote (it already is countries like Poland and Ukraine) the same way that National Socialism currently is.
Almost 50 million people died in USSR due to communist policies and many more were enslaved in concentration camps. Then you add an additional 60 million dead due to chinese reforms and you've got the biggest number of deaths in the shortest spans of time.

It took soviets only a year to murder 10 million people after occupying Ukraine. That is a world record of mass starvation. And Ukraine didn't have a large population to begin with.

What were the uh, agricultural "policies" in Ukraine prior to the Soviets. Was it... was it serfdom?

[Prown]

Автор сообщения: Easterner

Автор сообщения: Prown

Maybe you should of read it then, because if you actually did take the time to read it you would realise that I do not support Russians version of communism, or the communism that was actually able to take root in the world. I Did say that what communism did for Russia was amazing in a Economical sense, but that doesn't mean it's any less ♥♥♥♥♥♥ what they did to achieve it. But to say it won't work because it's not economically viable is clearly false.

Communism was Supposed to take root in already industrialised countries with a healthy worker population, Communism in Russia had few workers, so it had to create them, and in order to create them it created MASSIVE upheaval and famine and killed ♥♥♥♥ loads of people.

This is an Authoritarian problem, not a communism one, and the fact you conflate the two means that you have bought into exactly the definition the Capitalist class wants. We all are susceptible to propaganda, even this could be construed as propaganda, but sometimes you just gotta actually think for yourself.

1. I ain't wasting time reading that wall of text. The opinion of a random gamer isn't important enough to spend several minutes listening to it.

2. Communism isn't needed in an already industrialised nation. And even then, Venezuela is an example of a communist revolution in one.
Go ask them how well they are doing.

3. "If you don't agree with me, you have just been exposed to propaganda". Again, you cannot provide a valuable insight, so it's easy to disagree with you.
Every single time communism devolved into authoritarianism within less than a day.

Communist ideology is a complete failure that would never work the way it was intended, due to human nature of greed, group thinking and selfishness.
At the very least capitalism accounts for that and tried to put the innate greed to good use. And I'm not endorsing capitalism either.

Well I'm sure you are going to love living life ignorant, since you refuse to read anything larger than a tweet, so let me just say this one thing so you can comprehend before your ADHD kicks in

Communism hasn't succeeded because it hasn't been allowed to. If you want more info on that, try doing some research since I'm not going to bother educating someone who doesn't want to be.

[kgkong]

Well I'm sure you are going to love living life ignorant, since you refuse to read anything larger than a tweet, so let me just say this one thing so you can comprehend before your ADHD kicks in

People: Hey can someone explain this to me?
The help they get: *concise, explanatory text containing maybe at least 350/400 words*
People: Wow I don't need an essay I ain't reading that, gimme the TL;DR.
The help they get: That is the TL;DR, topic is complex and involves a lot of variables.

Welcome to the 21st century where people today don't have the time to actually understand things, they have to get told what to think/understand.

Even worse is they have no problem reading 5,000 or more words of someone arguing. But they can't be bothered to read 350/400 words of concise, on topic content.

[equinox1911]

Whats up with all the Capitalism fanboys in this thread that cant do anything but regurgitate
long disproven anti soviet propaganda.
Shouldn't they be consumed by their effort to prove capitalism is better in this game?

[kgkong]

Автор сообщения: equinox1911

Whats up with all the Capitalism fanboys in this thread that cant do anything but regurgitate
long disproven anti soviet propaganda.
Shouldn't they be consumed by their effort to prove capitalism is better in this game?

You mean how everybody plays this game going for capitalism mixed with whatever governance style they actually want?

Comparing capitalism and communism doesn't make sense as one is a market style and the other is a governance style. You can compare how they're different in this sense. But they can coexist in harmony as much as they both cannot coexist. It all depends on how the policies of capitalism and communism are enforced. Look at modern day China. Communist. And capitalist.

They kind of mesh together nicely actually as capitalism is about massive profits and communism is generally about systemic centralized control. In fact, communism is probably one of the better governance system to use with capitalism because you can at a single level of government regulate and control the capitalism market system and not have to jump through as many hoops to correct or adjust problems in capitalism at sub-jurisdiction levels when in other governance systems.

[equinox1911]

That was not a serious comment :)

I'm just disgusted at the basic as ♥♥♥♥ and wrong ravings against communism at display

[Prown]

Автор сообщения: KingGorillaKong

Автор сообщения: equinox1911

Whats up with all the Capitalism fanboys in this thread that cant do anything but regurgitate
long disproven anti soviet propaganda.
Shouldn't they be consumed by their effort to prove capitalism is better in this game?

You mean how everybody plays this game going for capitalism mixed with whatever governance style they actually want?

Comparing capitalism and communism doesn't make sense as one is a market style and the other is a governance style. You can compare how they're different in this sense. But they can coexist in harmony as much as they both cannot coexist. It all depends on how the policies of capitalism and communism are enforced. Look at modern day China. Communist. And capitalist.

They kind of mesh together nicely actually as capitalism is about massive profits and communism is generally about systemic centralized control. In fact, communism is probably one of the better governance system to use with capitalism because you can at a single level of government regulate and control the capitalism market system and not have to jump through as many hoops to correct or adjust problems in capitalism at sub-jurisdiction levels when in other governance systems.

eehhhh... not really, Planned economy is about systemic centralised control. Communism itself can range from Planned Economy, down to Anarcho-syndicalism (no State at all). All can said to be communism, but you cannot define them by their state government type, Communist governments can be Authoritarian, democratic, or stateless entirely.

Communism at it's essence is the abolishment of private property, All is owned by the workers/people. How that plays out is up to the relevant system, Vic3 for example uses Worker co-ops to define how industry is run, rather than a fully Planned economy where everything is owned and operated by the Government directly, but what this means is that in order to be considered truely communist, you cannot be capitalist. If there is private property (Capital) then you are no longer communist.

What China has, is a socialist market economy. A very Authoritarian socialistic flavour of "Capitalism", essentially Private property is allowed, and Capitalism can flourish, but under strict control over the government. There are still the capital owners who own the companies, which are not owned by the workers or the government. This is still considered Communism because of strict government oversight, and Communism was never expected to spring forth from the ground full formed, but to Alter Capitalistic societies as they slowly turn into full planned economies, which is what China is attempting to do (in theory). Essentially they created a controlled capitalistic economy so they could eventually morph it into a true communistic one (I for one, don't think it will work...)

However in Vic3, Communist is more in line with traditional origins, which doesn't necessitate the government style, only the economic one.

[Supply Slut]

Автор сообщения: Easterner

Judeo-communism is a genocidal ideology that should be illegal…

So there it is, color me shocked. The lovely nazi propaganda, mixing anti-semitism with anti-communism so you neo-nazi losers can roll all your hate into one neat little package. Probably too hard to keep track of more than one group to hate at a time. That requires lots of thinking!

[equinox1911]

Автор сообщения: Supply Slut

That requires lots of thinking!

Not a lot, but clearly too much