In this game communism actually works, so It´s an inaccurate simulation.

[Maximvs]

In this game communism actually works, not only in a democratic way but also in an economic way.

In reality it failed miserably in both, democracy and human rights and more so in economic efficacy and efficiency.

The problem I see is that this game threat marxists "political theories" or " political ideas" as they were laws of nature. As an example, in theory theocratic goverments should be the perfect goverment, because "is the goverment of god" what´s more perfect than that ? well... the reallity doesn´t work like demagogues, power mongerers or just naive people say or belive it works.

In a communism Economy is stagnant and desicions need a lot of burocratic layers: as an example to fire or hire a worker is not as "easily" as in a private factory, also to move a businness or change production ( make chairs instead of tables ) or slaughter more or less animals, even cut a tree, all the controls, forms, autorization to change or innovate even in emergency situation relies in some sort of burocratic control and accountable. Even change a truck tire ( buy the new one)

All of this make corruption rampart, and people working behind and parallell to the system, somethimes just no taking decicions for the fear of punisment or plain fatigue of burocratic work.

As an example China was pretty poor until it change the system towards a more liberal economic system ( while not full liberal, in game cound be interventionist) same for Vietnam, and all eastern ex-Russian satellite countries.

Cuba and North Korea are the only communist economies today and the results are pretty lean and obvious.

It´s hard to represent corruption, stagnation, autocraric despotism and plain stupidity in game. So for a " solution " for this I would suggest the following:

All factories and production buildings consumes bureaucracy. As all productive decicions are taken from goverment top to bottom and then the response have to go from bottom to top it required a lot of bureaucrats.

Efficiency of factories and RGO should be seriously diminished by default (underproduction, ineffciency, plain steal, politicking ) If you want to avoid this you should use an Autoritary decree ( a new one) or pay a burocratic cost.

That´s a solution for the game as it´s current game system works, it represent, more or less, the "historical materialism" de facto, and all humans in game are honest, robots and predictable in it tastes and decicions.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

And of course, lassiz-faire capitalism never had any human rights problems.

[equinox1911]

So you do not understand why and under what circumstances the USSR adopted what is best described as state capitalism or command economy while calling it communism or socialism.

The core tennant of socialism is that the means of production are in the hands of the people working with em. Which is not how the Leninist-Marxist experiments of the 20th century did things, for one or the other reason.

Btw corruption is modeled as radicals who do not provide as much gpd and tax as loyal pops.

[RandyNewman]

Originally posted by Bardin Goreksson:

And of course, lassiz-faire capitalism never had any human rights problems.

Why, absolutely nothing that's been mentioned here has ever existed in *our* world. "Corruption"? What the ♥♥♥♥ is that?

[equinox1911]

Also, the command idustry of the USSR did work.
It idustrialised the biggest nation in 20 years (1919 -1939) to a point where it was able to defeat the european axis. Furthermore it had a strong showing from ~1955 -1965 providing most of its citizens with moderrn housing and amenities.

[Maximvs]

Originally posted by Bardin Goreksson:

And of course, lassiz-faire capitalism never had any human rights problems.

Yes they did, that´s why we all changed from LF to a more human system nowdays. But economically It was waaay better than Comunism. I don´t wanna be political in non historical terms nor generate an ideological discussion, jut try to be more accurate.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Also, the command idustry of the USSR did work.
It idustrialised the biggest nation in 20 years (1919 -1939) to a point where it was able to defeat the european axis. Furthermore it had a strong showing from ~1955 -1965 providing most of its citizens with moderrn housing and amenities.

That's a good point. The Soviet regime was oppressive and inefficient, BUT it was far less oppressive and inefficient than the Tsarist regime that proceeded it. Only a handful of communist countries, like East Germany and North Korea, were true hellholes. Countries like Cuba and Vietnam weren't really any worse than western-aligned dictatorships like Chile or pre-reform South Korea.

[Maximvs]

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Also, the command idustry of the USSR did work.

It idustrialised the biggest nation in 20 years (1919 -1939) to a point where it was able to defeat the european axis. Furthermore it had a strong showing from ~1955 -1965 providing most of its citizens with moderrn housing and amenities.

Still, It was one of the poorest countries in quality terms, for being a Superpower, the people theres live much worse that , USA, FRANCE, BRITAIN, JAPAN, ETC. People migrate form the East to the West for economical and humanitarian reasons. The Berlin Wall was a bartrier with barbed wire, dogs, machineguns and guards to prevent people form escaping the Communist hell to the Capitalist and democratic ( much much less hell ) countries.

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by Bardin Goreksson:

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Also, the command idustry of the USSR did work.
It idustrialised the biggest nation in 20 years (1919 -1939) to a point where it was able to defeat the european axis. Furthermore it had a strong showing from ~1955 -1965 providing most of its citizens with moderrn housing and amenities.

That's a good point. The Soviet regime was oppressive and inefficient, BUT it was far less oppressive and inefficient than the Tsarist regime that proceeded it. Only a handful of communist countries, like East Germany and North Korea, were true hellholes. Countries like Cuba and Vietnam weren't really any worse than western-aligned dictatorships like Chile or pre-reform South Korea.

What? Is what absurd reality is the DDR (east germany) in any way shape or form comparable to NK?
Like holy ♥♥♥♥.
The DDR was, regarding social policies, the most progressive of all the eastern block countries. On issues like decriminalisation of homosexuality it was even ahead of its west german counter part...
It had bad or rather unmoral laws and institutions, but it was very much a law driven society. No desotism or hardcore leader cult like NK.

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by Maximvs:

Still, It was one of the poorest countries in quality terms, for being a Superpower, the people theres live much worse that , USA, FRANCE, BRITAIN, JAPAN, ETC. People migrate form the East to the West for economical and humanitarian reasons. The Berlin Wall was a bartrier with barbed wire, dogs, machineguns and guards to prevent people form escaping the Communist hell to the Capitalist and democratic ( much much less hell ) countries.

You made the assertion that communism CANT work and just regurgitate cold war retoric.
All im saying is that for a time it did work and while well regulated market economies seem to do better than state capitalism all the big nations turned towards thatr model in the first and second world war. The USSR never returned to a real peacetime economy since it in fact was in an ideological war...

[Maximvs]

Originally posted by Bardin Goreksson:

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Also, the command idustry of the USSR did work.
It idustrialised the biggest nation in 20 years (1919 -1939) to a point where it was able to defeat the european axis. Furthermore it had a strong showing from ~1955 -1965 providing most of its citizens with moderrn housing and amenities.

That's a good point. The Soviet regime was oppressive and inefficient, BUT it was far less oppressive and inefficient than the Tsarist regime that proceeded it. Only a handful of communist countries, like East Germany and North Korea, were true hellholes. Countries like Cuba and Vietnam weren't really any worse than western-aligned dictatorships like Chile or pre-reform South Korea.

Communism is better than dictatorial absolutist monarchies, that´s a fact. But worse than Liberal Democratic countries, that´s also a fact. That´s why communism collapsed, intead of discussing ideas, where everybody is right, let´s discuss facts. People in Communist Countries are opressed nad poorer that Democratic Capitalist ones.

That´s not mean that there were worst regimes, absolute monarchies, slavery, fascist, etc
or that Liberal Democratic countries are perfect.

There is a reason why China, Vietnam, Germany and even Russia ( before the invasion ) changed system and with all particularities are more prosperous now, economically speaking.

The difference between North and South Korea, East and West Germany, China ( before Deng Xiaoping)... Cuba before and after the "revolution" should be enought exaples to adress the situation.

We are not talking about the " goodness " of and idea or if I agree with some postulate.
But facts, results.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Originally posted by Bardin Goreksson:

That's a good point. The Soviet regime was oppressive and inefficient, BUT it was far less oppressive and inefficient than the Tsarist regime that proceeded it. Only a handful of communist countries, like East Germany and North Korea, were true hellholes. Countries like Cuba and Vietnam weren't really any worse than western-aligned dictatorships like Chile or pre-reform South Korea.

What? Is what absurd reality is the DDR (east germany) in any way shape or form comparable to NK?
Like holy ♥♥♥♥.
The DDR was, regarding social policies, the most progressive of all the eastern block countries. On issues like decriminalisation of homosexuality it was even ahead of its west german counter part...
It had bad or rather unmoral laws and institutions, but it was very much a law driven society. No desotism or hardcore leader cult like NK.

My apologies, I suppose my knowledge about the GDR was inaccurate. All I knew of it was the Berlin Wall and the many authoritarian measures taken to enforce it, as well as the frightening power of the Stasi.

[Maximvs]

Originally posted by Bardin Goreksson:

Originally posted by equinox1911:

What? Is what absurd reality is the DDR (east germany) in any way shape or form comparable to NK?
Like holy ♥♥♥♥.
The DDR was, regarding social policies, the most progressive of all the eastern block countries. On issues like decriminalisation of homosexuality it was even ahead of its west german counter part...
It had bad or rather unmoral laws and institutions, but it was very much a law driven society. No desotism or hardcore leader cult like NK.

My apologies, I suppose my knowledge about the GDR was inaccurate. All I knew of it was the Berlin Wall and the many authoritarian measures taken to enforce it, as well as the frightening power of the Stasi.

East Germans were 4 times poorer than West Germans, that why everybody wanted to leave to the west. Also in human rights, like freedom of speech, political assembly, defense towards police abuses, etc were much better in the west.

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by Maximvs:

[quote=Bardin

East Germans were 4 times poorer than West Germans, that why everybody wanted to leave to the west. Also in human rights, like freedom of speech, political assembly, defense towards police abuses, etc were much better in the west.

Sure if you feel that way.
Today a huge part of the citizens of the old DDR are pretty much wage slaves without much social security but thats besides the point.
There is no argument about the eastern bloc, in its late stages, being less wealthy than some parts of the west that kept its post colonial grip on most of the world.
Historical facts alone are kinds useless in determining value of a society.

For example, in vicky, one thing that is actually not modeled is the outrageous impact monopolies had on capitalist societies in the late 19th century.

[Dark Sun Gwyndolin]

Originally posted by Maximvs:

Originally posted by Bardin Goreksson:

My apologies, I suppose my knowledge about the GDR was inaccurate. All I knew of it was the Berlin Wall and the many authoritarian measures taken to enforce it, as well as the frightening power of the Stasi.

East Germans were 4 times poorer than West Germans, that why everybody wanted to leave to the west. Also in human rights, like freedom of speech, political assembly, defense towards police abuses, etc were much better in the west.

I think that's where my answer came from. Not that GDR was worse than other communist countries, but that it was worse than West Germany.

EDIT: As an extension of my point, I am no way disparaging liberal democracy, since it's one of the best ideologies for guaranteeing human rights. In fact, Vic3 actually changed my view of capitalism, from being an ardent Christian Socialist to recognizing the merits of capitalism for promoting economic and political growth. Capitalism was superior in almost every conceivable way to feudalism that came before it.

[RandyNewman]

This thread where nobody knows what the Marshall Plan was is really good and totally belongs on these forums and isn't brainlet chud ♥♥♥♥