My god the performance

[Caronte☭]

Im playing Qing and doing very good, so good that at 1886 i have 700M in gdp, the problem is that the game goes so slow it gets boring after 5 minutes, i have a GTX2060 and this should not be a problem, now i understand why the war sistem is so barebones, imagine the engine having to calculate the economy (thing that really cant do) and calculating the military, Paradox is hardcapped by the technical limitations in this games, only imperator is fairly playable at late game, and that game was very minimalistic in a lot of things

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by LzDK14:

Oh and btw, when it comes to multicore systems, CPU utilisation been not at 100% doesn't mean that CPU is not a bottleneck.

That is why i specified that all cores and threads are being used the same.

[kgkong]

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

No the slow down is actually the CPU. It's not so much RAM. Though RAM will impact it, but it's incredibly marginal. The file sizes to run the commands and algorithms for the CPU back end calculation are small, so it's not hitting RAM very much.

Just the game isn't optimized to make efficient use of the 6 or 8 core CPUs as there's still a lot of gamers who run 4 core. By optimizing to allow full 6 or 8 core use, the game would be utterly chaos and unplayable on 4 cores. This is the happy medium we get right now until more work can get done to iron out these back end heavy CPU calculations.

Are you just refusing to read my comment or do you not believe me?
All cores and all threads aregetting used the SAME, being stable around 50%.
The need for RAM or rather fast RAM is dependent on how much data is needed per calculation. A CPU stress test like AIDA64 for example is desinged to be completly hold in l1 - l3 cash on the CPU so there cant be a RAM slowdown ...

I have a 5800X.
I know what you're talking about. But I also work in game development. This isn't that much of a RAM problem. RAM has very little to do with CPU algorithmic calculations. RAM gets the most use on launch, saves, and loads and whenever the GPU needs extra assistance. Otherwise, RAM in Vic3 is minimally used. 6GB on average.

It's how heavy these CPU operations are that need to calculate pop group affiliations, population shifts, market projections, and calculate the AI for each individual nation and all the sub-mechanics that are CPU algorithms.

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

I have a 5800X.
I know what you're talking about. But I also work in game development. This isn't that much of a RAM problem. RAM has very little to do with CPU algorithmic calculations. RAM gets the most use on launch, saves, and loads and whenever the GPU needs extra assistance. Otherwise, RAM in Vic3 is minimally used. 6GB on average.

It's how heavy these CPU operations are that need to calculate pop group affiliations, population shifts, market projections, and calculate the AI for each individual nation and all the sub-mechanics that are CPU algorithms.

If you work as a game dev i just hope its far away from any optimisation work!
You have no clue.

First is that you conflate data being hold in RAM and the actual reason it is being held there in the first place, to provide it for the CPU or GPU on demand.
Also amount of RAM used is different from how fast that data can be provided.

Second is that the calculations for Vicky seem to be largly data reliant and are not algorithmic. Essentially every tick the game has to fetch all the data from all the pops, industry etc and update em via pretty simple calculations.

[Zero, Dark Knight]

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Second is that the calculations for Vicky seem to be largly data reliant and are not algorithmic. Essentially every tick the game has to fetch all the data from all the pops, industry etc and update em via pretty simple calculations.

so - is this a ram, or CPU issue, or both

[kgkong]

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Second is that the calculations for Vicky seem to be largly data reliant and are not algorithmic. Essentially every tick the game has to fetch all the data from all the pops, industry etc and update em via pretty simple calculations.

so - is this a ram, or CPU issue, or both

It's a CPU issue.
On Linux and OS X, due to how the game is designed to run on those kernel frameworks, requires more RAM.

But if you only have 8GB of system RAM, RAM is a problem as Windows uses 3 to 4GB and this leaves you with a deficit to run the game which needs on average 6GB. 8-6 = 2. OS needs 4, 2 - 4 = -2. You'll push your CPU harder as it makes use of the scratch and page files on the system drive.

So in the instance you only have 8GB of RAM, depending on what CPU you have, it could be CPU, could be RAM or could be both.
But the majority of these RAM deficits can actually be resolved by a faster CPU which can handle tasks faster and make quicker use of the RAM.

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Second is that the calculations for Vicky seem to be largly data reliant and are not algorithmic. Essentially every tick the game has to fetch all the data from all the pops, industry etc and update em via pretty simple calculations.

so - is this a ram, or CPU issue, or both

Depends on the system and what the bottleneck is.
But currently it seems to me that Vicky 3 has very different demands than most games.
On my system it RAM speed is the clear bottleneck.
Before i got the 5600, i played the game with an intel 3570k and on that 4 core 4 thread processor the clear bottleneck was the CPU. It was miserable beyonf 1870 or 1880...

[kgkong]

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

I have a 5800X.
I know what you're talking about. But I also work in game development. This isn't that much of a RAM problem. RAM has very little to do with CPU algorithmic calculations. RAM gets the most use on launch, saves, and loads and whenever the GPU needs extra assistance. Otherwise, RAM in Vic3 is minimally used. 6GB on average.

It's how heavy these CPU operations are that need to calculate pop group affiliations, population shifts, market projections, and calculate the AI for each individual nation and all the sub-mechanics that are CPU algorithms.

If you work as a game dev i just hope its far away from any optimisation work!
You have no clue.

First is that you conflate data being hold in RAM and the actual reason it is being held there in the first place, to provide it for the CPU or GPU on demand.
Also amount of RAM used is different from how fast that data can be provided.

Second is that the calculations for Vicky seem to be largly data reliant and are not algorithmic. Essentially every tick the game has to fetch all the data from all the pops, industry etc and update em via pretty simple calculations.

I work technical support for game development. I relay a lot of the end user problems, I analyse and compile data sets and pass them off to the dev team to patch, optimize and so forth.

RAM won't save people's CPU a whole lot when it comes to the performance issues this game can have.

Intel CPUs suck at multi core usage. When they get tasks that require multiple cores, the core clocks slow down faster than the AMD alternatives. This causes a bigger problem as this makes the algorithms managing the games heavy backend calculations process slower, thus is why you see so many late game slowdowns and so many more with mid game slow downs for Intel users versus AMD users.

AMD processors have always been designed for efficient multicore use. In fact, the 5800X doesn't experience multicore slow down while running Victoria 3. But on the i9-9700K I have access to, the clock slows down a lot the moment the the CPU hits 30% usage. It really starts to slow down come late game. It's not a RAM issue either as both of these rigs have 32GB or more RAM.

[Zero, Dark Knight]

Okay so let's ask another question.

Are the minimum specs of this game, actually -properly aligned with what is needed to run it-?

If "yes" fine.

If "no" - then what is wrong with them?
or is it the coding of this game which is causing them to demand more of the hardware than the minimum is saying?

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

so - is this a ram, or CPU issue, or both

It's a CPU issue.
On Linux and OS X, due to how the game is designed to run on those kernel frameworks, requires more RAM.

But if you only have 8GB of system RAM, RAM is a problem as Windows uses 3 to 4GB and this leaves you with a deficit to run the game which needs on average 6GB. 8-6 = -4. You'll push your CPU harder as it makes use of the scratch and page files on the system drive.

So in the instance you only have 8GB of RAM, depending on what CPU you have, it could be CPU, could be RAM or could be both.
But the majority of these RAM deficits can actually be resolved by a faster CPU which can handle tasks faster and make quicker use of the RAM.

WOW
what a bunch of uneducated ♥♥♥♥♥ you spurr out.
How is 8 minus 6 a -4? This doesnt even make sense if you assume win takes 3-4 which it does not while gaming. It will push about half of it to the pagefile before the game has to do that resulting in slow alt tabbing.
A faster CPU will almost never help with RAM issues.
Yes a faster memory controller, which these days is located on the CPU can help, but those are pretty much bound to the given DDR standard and the running speed of the RAM.

[kgkong]

Originally posted by Zero, Dark Knight:

Okay so let's ask another question.

Are the minimum specs of this game, actually -properly aligned with what is needed to run it-?

If "yes" fine.

If "no" - then what is wrong with them?
or is it the coding of this game which is causing them to demand more of the hardware than the minimum is saying?

Yes and no.
If you have the minimum spec'd CPU, you need more RAM and a higher end GPU to help reduce the workload on the CPU.
The minimum GPU is fine if you don't run the minimum spec'd CPU.
The minimum spec'd RAM is fine, if you don't run the minimum spec'd CPU and GPU.

But the minimum spec's shouldn't be hardware model. It should be hardware requirements.

Minimum
CPU - AVX support, 2.5GHz, 4 core.

Recommended
CPU - AVX support, 2.81GHz, 6 core.

That's my recommendation.

And I always recommend a minimum of 16GB just to avoid any potential memory bottlenecks. Most games use 6GB of memory and the OS uses 3 to 4... Do the math... Doesn't add up.

[LzDK14]

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

Ohh, so it's player's fault again for not putting software on RAM drive? Suuuure, not developers fault! They should expect palyers to put thier game on RAM drive, they just need to forget to specify it on requirements page! It's OK KingApe says.

This comment just provided proof you don't know what you're actually talking about cause you have clearly incorrectly understood what you were replying to.

How so? Be so kind as to elaborate your point? Or are just crying "i'm right, you wrong! Mama, mean persone on the internet show how stupid I am".
There-there, crybaby, go suck a candy.

[kgkong]

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

It's a CPU issue.
On Linux and OS X, due to how the game is designed to run on those kernel frameworks, requires more RAM.

But if you only have 8GB of system RAM, RAM is a problem as Windows uses 3 to 4GB and this leaves you with a deficit to run the game which needs on average 6GB. 8-6 = -4. You'll push your CPU harder as it makes use of the scratch and page files on the system drive.

So in the instance you only have 8GB of RAM, depending on what CPU you have, it could be CPU, could be RAM or could be both.
But the majority of these RAM deficits can actually be resolved by a faster CPU which can handle tasks faster and make quicker use of the RAM.

WOW
what a bunch of uneducated ♥♥♥♥♥ you spurr out.
How is 8 minus 6 a -4? This doesnt even make sense if you assume win takes 3-4 which it does not while gaming. It will push about half of it to the pagefile before the game has to do that resulting in slow alt tabbing.
A faster CPU will almost never help with RAM issues.
Yes a faster memory controller, which these days is located on the CPU can help, but those are pretty much bound to the given DDR standard and the running speed of the RAM.

Reread. I edited. I ended a sentence too early.

[equinox1911]

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

I work technical support for game development. I relay a lot of the end user problems, I analyse and compile data sets and pass them off to the dev team to patch, optimize and so forth.

RAM won't save people's CPU a whole lot when it comes to the performance issues this game can have.

Intel CPUs suck at multi core usage. When they get tasks that require multiple cores, the core clocks slow down faster than the AMD alternatives. This causes a bigger problem as this makes the algorithms managing the games heavy backend calculations process slower, thus is why you see so many late game slowdowns and so many more with mid game slow downs for Intel users versus AMD users.

AMD processors have always been designed for efficient multicore use. In fact, the 5800X doesn't experience multicore slow down while running Victoria 3. But on the i9-9700K I have access to, the clock slows down a lot the moment the the CPU hits 30% usage. It really starts to slow down come late game. It's not a RAM issue either as both of these rigs have 32GB or more RAM.

Ok, good to see you are not implementing the performance changes, bc you RLY do not know what you are talking about. Well, ok, i give you that those comments have been, in a very broad sense true for a few years now.
To reiterate RAM size is not equal to RAM speed.
The data a CPU needs for a calculation travels through, from SSD to RAM to the CASH on the CPU, each is about an order of magnitude faster than the next. And the size only matters if the whole calculation CAN need more than it has aviable at any of the stages of this chain.
Most the time my Vicky takes about 8.5 gigs in RAM and has plenty left if it wanted (like 15gb). Running the game uncapped at speed 5 results in only 50% cpu utilisation.

What is your analysis to these metrics?

[LzDK14]

Originally posted by equinox1911:

Originally posted by KingGorillaKong:

No the slow down is actually the CPU. It's not so much RAM. Though RAM will impact it, but it's incredibly marginal. The file sizes to run the commands and algorithms for the CPU back end calculation are small, so it's not hitting RAM very much.

Just the game isn't optimized to make efficient use of the 6 or 8 core CPUs as there's still a lot of gamers who run 4 core. By optimizing to allow full 6 or 8 core use, the game would be utterly chaos and unplayable on 4 cores. This is the happy medium we get right now until more work can get done to iron out these back end heavy CPU calculations.

Are you just refusing to read my comment or do you not believe me?
All cores and all threads aregetting used the SAME, being stable around 50%.
The need for RAM or rather fast RAM is dependent on how much data is needed per calculation. A CPU stress test like AIDA64 for example is desinged to be completly hold in l1 - l3 cash on the CPU so there cant be a RAM slowdown ...

So here we go.
What do we have.
1. Game have recomended CPU and RAM specification.
2. Those specifications are met.
3. Game hangs when entity count grows.

Since modern CPU, via chipset, are working with same and defined RAM type, it's fair to say, that RAM delays are pretty much same for all RAM for each processor of defined generation, there can't be a situation when DDR2 is used with 6th gen CPU, reverse is true also, 2d gen CPU cannot be used with DDR4. Therefor, by stating CPU requirements, RAM type requrements are also set - it's DDR3L-1333/1600.

If soft is generating load that can't get through north bridge memory bus - that's outright lying to customer.

Are you, as KingApe, imply that it's OK to lie to customers? And it's players fault for not stress testing game before buying it by just looking at recomended requirements?

As for disk subsystem - mandatory flash drive is not stated in recomended requirements. But game is stuttering even on m2 drive.

There are ways to increase perfomance of any soft, from simpleton-like "disable antivirus and lube your arse" to more sophisticated as fine-tuning game threads and moving game entirely on RAM drive. But later will require both better hardware and know-how. And that just to play an unmodded game on a system well conforming to recomended hardware requirements.

[Zero, Dark Knight]

Okay, so how about this as my next question:

Does anyone here know what is causing the crashing in Vic3 ?
and what's 'wrong' with it? I don't mean the slow down, that's just more stuff = more load time.. = slower. I get that.
but the crashes?