How is westernization handled?

[BandAid]

In Vicky 2 you either where westernized or you where not, with massive drawbacks and the fact that you fell further and further behind as westernized nations developed and researched new technologies while you where stuck almost in place.

I have read that in Vicky 3 there only recognized and unrecognized powers on the diplomatic front. How is the industrial and technical side handled? Can nations like China for example simply start industrialising like western countries? Do they have special debuffs which need to be overcome?

[winddbourne]

If I'm understanding right it's handled through politics. There are different paths towards industry but also certain social groups that are going to stand against progress and those powerful forces have to be dealt with somehow.

[whatamidoing]

There's technological, legal, and societal hurdles to development.

[copperzinc]

Industrial side you will be looking at new techs. New techs produces new types of goods, which will be using new production methods, which may require new strata of people and new resources as well. While every peasant want to stop being a peasant, it takes time and resources to promote them to next level, which is impacted also by public education and other areas.

Specifically about Great Qing? I had played Great Qing during the PDXCON. Yes, technically you could. But you will be facing an uphill battle because your populations are mostly peasants (true for all countries but much worse for Great Qing), you suffer a huge tax inefficiency penalty (corruption combined with lack of formal tax offices in rural areas and a huge population), and the opium trade starts to wage a heavy toll on your economy very early in the game. There were some ways to get out of it though... In my game I allied with France and Japanese Shogunate (who were treating me as a rival until I sided them on Siam, then they became conciliatory and we became actual allies). Then I started to build opium farm myself, and export it to other buyers, making a big profit to grow my peasants. You don't actually have to take a war path to become wealthy here...

And when Great Britian come and knock on my door, I got the backing of France and her allies and Japan. It was a short play ;)

[The Former]

There aren't only recognized and unrecognized powers, though recognition is certainly a huge step. There are actually many tiers of power, from decentralized governments that are unplayable (there will be rather few of these) to great powers that can get involved in conflicts anywhere in the world.

Modernizing is separate from geopolitical recognition, and seems to be handled through a combination of government and technology. It's possible for example to be a backward autocratic dictatorship with a strong industry built around modern factories, an agrarian backwater with extremely liberal human rights policies, a peasant-driven monarchy with absolute authority vested in the crown, or an industrialist democracy with universal suffrage and advanced production facilities.

[copperzinc]

Originally posted by spasti696969:

That's kinda like the tribal vs feudal dynamic in Crusader Kings. You start off strong which gives you an advantage in the early game but fall behind in the mid game if you don't modernize.

Yep! Although in Vicky3, there is even less attention paid to warfare than CK2. It's much more viable being the "tribal" (absolute monarchy with unenlightened pops) than CK. Because you can make powerful diplomatic plays and trade with countries you ally with.

Could probably survive with a independent Michigan from United States. But I don't think you have much choice if you start as Texas haha.

[I got 1984'd]

There's no "westernize" button, that's for sure. You naturally progress through laws and industries and research. It's entirely possible for non-western country to catch up now. If not, at least be formidable enough to stop the western countries from bullying you into submission.

[The Nichtnochter]

I really like that just because you've researched a tech doesn't mean it automatically applies & you have to find ways to properly implement a tech afterwards. In fact, this is very believable as it is what happened in Qing.

When Qing was forced open with treaty ports through war it learnt a lot about the technology available just like Japan had Dutch studies before they were forced open with gunboat diplomacy.

During the reign of Empress Dowager Cixi in Qing China industrialised from 1860s to her death in 1908. Telegraphs, Peking university & more were adopted. Yet for Railways she & the rest of china knew about the technology for decades yet she forbade construction until she herself rode of a locomotive & enjoyed it on the latter end of her reign.

First a railway of raw resources in Formosa (Taiwan) was allowed for quite the time only before the whole rest of china expanded its rail system. This whole real fact is perfectly shown in Victoria 3 by Qing knowing of Railway tech for decades before construction the first railway in the country.*

A 1836 Qing could totally open up voluntarily & learn of modern tech easily (i.e. player Qing), it is the implementation that will be a chore as your pops & cloutful interests groups disapprove of all these... western ideas; until you convince them otherwise.

* Source from 'Empress Dowager Cixi: the Concubine that Launched Modern China" by Jung Chang, a recommended read from me.