The unlockable classes are much worse than the base classes...

[Kaivian]

Other than the Herbalist, the unloackble classes are much worse than their starting counterpart. After playing a Journeyman game through Act I using the Trapper, Busker, and Herbalist, I can say with some certainty I'd never use them again.



Blacksmith vs Woodcutter
BS has +5 Luck, +6 Vitality, Steady which reduces incoming damage often, and is strong with both 2h and 1hs.
WC has +2 Str, +2 Speed, Justice, which only helps on 2hs, and procs very infrequently (in fact, I only saw it proc once in 3 levels of fighting)

Minstril vs Busker
Minstril has +5 Luck, +2 Talent, Gives XP almost every turn (always near allies) and increases damage/status inflicted
Busker has +20 Vitality, Gives Gold only when near town, and takes 2 procs to afford even 1 godsbeard, and decreases damage/status taken

Hunter vs Trapper
Hunter has +5 Luck, +6 vitality, +4 Quickness, +2 Awareness, Called Shot (ranged damage), energy boost (+1 to +2 movement or HP regen proc often)
Elite Sneak: Very Useful
Elite Trap Evasion: Pretty much worthless (other party members still get hit)

Trapper has Elite Ambush (Useful for singling enemies out), Elite Trap Disarm (useful, but not that useful since you can use focus and traps are rare), and Counter Attack (very rare melee attack after being hit)

Scholar may actually be weaker than Herbalist, I should try using them more. But with how often Herbalist gets very useful plants, which cost a ton of money that rapidly escalates, I think the Herbalist will always be in my Journeyman/Master teams.

So, the main issue with advanced classes is the minus 5 luck. There are so many forced luck events (ones you can't leave and have some other character to attempt), namely the dark enchanter that frequently will give/take XP/Money off rolls. Also, the most powerful rewards are luck based, like Wishing Well and Dark Carnival (that -3 chaos is clutch in Journeyman/Master). Also, I've heard that Luck figures into the loot you recieve (unconfirmed) and crits (unconfirmed). Even if it doesn't figure into the latter 2, Luck is still vital.

I propose these balance changes:

Advanced classes have their stats rebalanced so they also have 55 luck, or they get much greater bonuses to other stats. The busker, as the luck equipment class, should absolutely be equal with the minstrel for me to ever use them.

Busker
Busker entertain always works near towns, carnivals and markets. If you are playing efficiently, you will be away from these places on AT LEAST half your turns, and even more when on the sea, so there's no need to limit it, imo. Whereas, I think XP is fine being a limited proc, since you are almost always close enough to your allies since it's support range, and XP (being higher level) is far better, anyways.

Woodcutter
Justice needs to be buffed in proc chance. It should happen at least 20% of the time to be on par with the blacksmith's advantages. Alternatively, give the woodcutter some other new interesting ability. Like maybe they can freely pass through forest tiles, or turn them into flat tiles by making an inaccurate (-20%) 4 slot str check, that you can use focus on, and failure deals 5, 10, 15 damage.

Trapper
Trapper could have buffed counter attack proc chance. Also, since traps are so rare, I'm thinking that Elite Trap Disarm either adds extra XP shared with the party when a trap is disarmed, or the Trapper scavenges "parts" (Gets some gold loot) from disarming traps.

As I said, the herbalist is clutch to being able to do the harder difficulties (which may be too hard atm, I'm not sure, still playing around). I don't think the herbalist should be nerfed at all. If they were, I would immediately drop them for using the other 3 class types.

As far as the harder difficulties being too hard, I was surprised at the jump between apprentice (far too easy for me, I beat my first game). And Journeyman, where I barely eaked out a win in Act I several times, and have yet to beat Act 2.

One other note: I'd like to see a "party heal" ability for other herbs (particularly poison), that appears on high level equipment. So like high level staffs, and on a higher level version of the "healers cap."

[Kaivian]

I just had a thought. Instead of difficulty mostly being controlled by Chaos, what if Chaos was only slightly more frequent on Journeyman, but the base to hit chance is reduced by 5%?

[Crim]

Woodcutter is VASTLY superior than Blacksmith

Blacksmith is the WORST CLASS IN THE GAME!

Herbalist can also make the game fairly easy mode, but its fairly debateable if she's actually better than the Sorcerer.

Trapper is a decent, and a balanced class and useful class... The problem is Hunter is by FAR the most BROKEN OVERPOWERED GG EZ Class in the game.

Busker is a little weak, but the only buff he needs is a slight increase to the chance of triggering his interrupt.

Tier List
SSS - Hunter (Note, the additional 2 S's to demonstrate how broken he is...)
SS - Nothing
S - Nothing
A - Ministrel, Herbalist
B - Scholar
C - Trapper, Woodcutter, Busker
D - Blacksmith

[Kaivian]

Wtf, how's Hunter the most broken class in the game? How did you get to THAT conclusion?

Have you even tried journeyman or master?

I tried to fill my post with actual numbers and observations, whereas your response is just filled with a lot of capital letters and opinions.

It's hilarious you rate Hunter SSS and Trapper C when they use the same weapons and weapons matter far more than anything else in this game...

[LostArc]

Hunter vs Trapper

This one is a no-brainer. The Hunter class has higher Awareness/Quickness/Evasion compared to the Trapper class. The Hunter also has more Special Abilities that are also more useful. The only thing the Trapper class has going for him/her is Elite Ambush. But, not having Called Shot if you were to switch to using Bows is the determining factor. Called Shot gives a small chance to pass Stat tests while using bows and always crits. Well, the Hunter class is the best class in the game anyways, so tough luck.

Busker vs Woodcutter vs Blacksmith

Does no one else use the Busker as a STR class? Interrupt is broken and can Fizzle out your enemy buffs/debuffs. It also can stops special effects from passing Stat tests. For example, Status Effects and AoE Attacks. The fact that he can use Interrupt with any weapons is what makes it truly useful and it does not need a buff. He can also switch between STR/TALENT builds (Physical and Magic Damage). Entertain also gives more gold later into the game allowing him to make purchases other classes would not be able to, which makes him an addition to your party more valuable. The Busker is also a bit faster than the Woodcutter and Blacksmith class. The Busker's special abilities overall trumps the Blacksmith’s/Woodcutter’s. Justice is very unreliable in combat, only works with Two-Handed Weapons, and less likely to be used optimally. Who needs Elite Door Bash when you get so many lock picks? Blacksmith's Steady ability is nice but that’s it and you shouldn't be relying on it when you’re supposed to be a tank, it's definitely better on other roles. The Stats comparison between the 3 classes are minor.

Minstrel

The Minstrel's special abilities Encourage and Inspire are definitely superior to the Scholar and Herbalist. Anything that helps allieviate RNG in combat is strong and free XP is just a plus. Minstrel does have a weakness. No Elemental Damage - He cannot apply Shock/Frost through Lutes which are two of the most important Status Effects late game. Although, he could switch to a staff as long as you are having him hold onto INT equipment, which is what you should be doing anyways.

Scholar vs Herbalist

The Herbalist's innate Party Heal is what makes her better than the Scholar, but not by much. The Scholar has his place as the 3rd fastest class in the game, it all depends on your composition. Slow and resilient? Herbalist, High Damage and Quick? Scholar.

I’ve completed Apprentice and Journeyman with all of the classes interchangeably. I’ve also recently completed Master with Trapper, Busker, Herbalist. Each of the classes do have their place and as long as you have a composition of an Awareness class/Strength class/Intelligence or Talent class then you should be able to finish the game.

My Tier List

S - Hunter
A - Busker, Minstrel
B - Herbalist
C - Scholar, Woodcutter
D - Blacksmith, Trapper

[jimeh]

Luck is a hidden stat, do you mean talent?
Counter-attack isn't a rare melee attack; its protection from ambush.

[Crim]

引用自 blastedlabs：

Wtf, how's Hunter the most broken class in the game? How did you get to THAT conclusion?

Have you even tried journeyman or master?

I tried to fill my post with actual numbers and observations, whereas your response is just filled with a lot of capital letters and opinions.

It's hilarious you rate Hunter SSS and Trapper C when they use the same weapons and weapons matter far more than anything else in this game...

Your post also only includes comparison between 2 classes, when things can be substituted for others. Your post also places far too much weight on raw stats, and doesn't go indepth enough the abilities that the classes have. A Ministral can be a Mage basically as good as a Scholar can be, but he won't have Refocus default... but then you have to consider that Refocus isn't that hard to get in game thru equipments, and that Focus can be easily restored in Town or with Herbs.

I didn't go into detail in my post, but I understand game balance rather well. I did exaggerate my words, but it was for dramatic effect. Dramatic effect is important, it makes your post more enjoyable. <3

As far as Hunter is concerned, it's hilarious that you believe they are anywhere near each other in utility. It's shocking that you would just gloss over how incredibly powerful Called Shot and Energy Boost are. Not to mention that Hunter has great Vitality and insane Evasion, making them arguably the best Tanks in the game. Yet you didn't mention that at all! Come on, this is basic stuff man.

引用自 LostArc：

Hunter vs Trapper

This one is a no-brainer. The Hunter class has higher Awareness/Quickness/Evasion compared to the Trapper class. The Hunter also has more Special Abilities that are also more useful. The only thing the Trapper class has going for him/her is Elite Ambush. But, not having Called Shot if you were to switch to using Bows is the determining factor. Called Shot gives a small chance to pass Stat tests while using bows and always crits. Well, the Hunter class is the best class in the game anyways, so tough luck.

Busker vs Woodcutter vs Blacksmith

Does no one else use the Busker as a STR class? Interrupt is broken and can Fizzle out your enemy buffs/debuffs. It also can stops special effects from passing Stat tests. For example, Status Effects and AoE Attacks. The fact that he can use Interrupt with any weapons is what makes it truly useful and it does not need a buff. He can also switch between STR/TALENT builds (Physical and Magic Damage). Entertain also gives more gold later into the game allowing him to make purchases other classes would not be able to, which makes him an addition to your party more valuable. The Busker is also a bit faster than the Woodcutter and Blacksmith class. The Busker's special abilities overall trumps the Blacksmith’s/Woodcutter’s. Justice is very unreliable in combat, only works with Two-Handed Weapons, and less likely to be used optimally. Who needs Elite Door Bash when you get so many lock picks? Blacksmith's Steady ability is nice but that’s it and you shouldn't be relying on it when you’re supposed to be a tank, it's definitely better on other roles. The Stats comparison between the 3 classes are minor.

Minstrel

The Minstrel's special abilities Encourage and Inspire are definitely superior to the Scholar and Herbalist. Anything that helps allieviate RNG in combat is strong and free XP is just a plus. Minstrel does have a weakness. No Elemental Damage - He cannot apply Shock/Frost through Lutes which are two of the most important Status Effects late game. Although, he could switch to a staff as long as you are having him hold onto INT equipment, which is what you should be doing anyways.

Scholar vs Herbalist

The Herbalist's innate Party Heal is what makes her better than the Scholar, but not by much. The Scholar has his place as the 3rd fastest class in the game, it all depends on your composition. Slow and resilient? Herbalist, High Damage and Quick? Scholar.

I’ve completed Apprentice and Journeyman with all of the classes interchangeably. I’ve also recently completed Master with Trapper, Busker, Herbalist. Each of the classes do have their place and as long as you have a composition of an Awareness class/Strength class/Intelligence or Talent class then you should be able to finish the game.

My Tier List

S - Hunter
A - Busker, Minstrel
B - Herbalist
C - Scholar, Woodcutter
D - Blacksmith, Trapper

Oh man, first thing I did on my 2nd playthru was give the Busker a Strength Weapon. He is definitely terrible with Instruments. He might as well have been called a Rogue instead! I think the Busker is one of my favorite classes, and the idea of the damage reduction and effect interrupt he can provide is incredibly utility. The problem is that it doesn't trigger often enough, not to mention that intelligent and skilled play makes it trigger even less! If you're bursting down opponents, it will trigger less total times per game. If you're using crowd control or shock, it will trigger less, etc etc. His gold advantage is nice, but it often tends to be padding with intelligent play. I know I tend to end my games with 500-1000 gold remaining, and nothing really left to buy. Tho many of the times I used Busker I felt I did have a bit more gold earlier on when I still found it difficult to buy the Herbs I need. I feel they definitely need to give Busker a little more before he deserves to be on the same Rank as Ministrel. Speaking of Ministrel, his ability has far more utility since it makes everything more reliable. Not to mention it effectively passively raises everyone's damage.

As far as the rest of your Tiers, I think they are pretty close and kinda of interchangable. I feel the Elite Ambush of the Trapper can be pretty useful for chaining those Ambushes. Not to mention the game doesn't have a ton of traps, but it does help on saving focus. Which means it's providing solid group utility unlike the selfish Hunter's Trap Evade. So personally, I think Blacksmith is worse than Trapper. I also just wouldn't compare Hunter to any of the other classes, so the Trapper shouldn't be punished in placement just because the Hunter is broken overpowered.

[LostArc]

The Busker is also my favorite class and I use his Entertain as part of my strategy to complete the game. I do end up with over 1k gold leftover on each of my characters late game, but Entertain will certainly help you reach endgame with less trouble. I still don’t think his Interrupt needs a buff since it would be too strong otherwise. In my experience with the Busker, I’ve had him Interrupt twice in a row before and you’re most likely going to get 2 or more Interrupts each fight later into the game. Like Encourage, I feel that the frequency is about equal with Interrupt and using 1 focus with an attack is at times better than relying on Encourage. The Minstrel and Busker class are quite similar in and out of combat and due to the fact that I’m also a bit subjective, I gave him a rank equal to the Minstrel.

Also, the reason why I compared the Trapper to the Hunter class is because that’s really the only viable position he can replace and since the Hunter does a better job as the Physical DPS, you can’t just lie to yourself that the Trapper is rather lacking. Although, I also ranked the Blacksmith in D tier, she is also the best class for a Taunt strategy by having the highest Vitality and lowest Quickness. This means that her Taunt will last until it reaches her turn again, and since she’s the slowest it may last for more than one attack from the same creature. That’s also probably reason why she comes with innate Steadfast.

I do agree with you that a lot of these strategies will only work by playing intelligently and for others to understand that, I would have to write an in-depth guide explaining. But to keep it brief success in For the King relies on: Combat Strategy, Statues and Sanctums Utilization, Early Game Planning, Class Utilization, Inventory Management and Purchases, World Map Movement, and Chaos Control, which will all dictate many of your success or failures.

As I repeat from my previous post, for those who may disagree, you can definitely finish the game with any of the classes, even in Master, as long as you understand how to utilize them effectively and think about the decisions you are making.

[Belgium]

#LostArc
I liked your first post in this thread. I agree with your descriptions except for the minstrel so you motivated me to play minstrel with int ! Since you finished the game on master which I can't do, I would like to read your future guide ! :)



S - Hunter, Herbalist
I put Herbalist so high in my list because I think "party heal" is op => having it early is gold saving. + you can increase the herbalist pipe only. "Gather Herb" is gold saving too and not only to heal. All herbs are usefull.
Hunter, highest awarness and highest quickness, my 2 favorite stats. Nice vit, nice dodge

A - Busker
I like his skills. I don't put in S rank because his awarness and quickness are kinda bad.

B - Scholar, Minstrel
To be honnest I like Scholar and minstrel but for me it's more effective to run herbalist and busker instead of them so they are only rank B. I made a run with scholar and early party heal. It was really strong, beter than herbalist, I like scholar quickness. But if you don't have party heal quickly, it can be frustrating

C - Blacksmith
I like him as a vit/taunter but as strenght user I prefer busker.

D - Woodcutter, Trapper
I don't like justice skill from woodcutter and I think 1 handed str + party bonnus (armor,resist,evade) for the team are beter than 2 handed weapons. Many 1 handed str weapons bypass ennemy armors while 2 handed don't (or few ?)
Trapper, I guess it's good if you use ambush well else hunter got far beter stats. (even vitality, why ?).


Did someone finish the game in journeyman difficulty with quickness team setup ?
Like hunter, scholar and something else (minstrel, trapper ?).

[Kaivian]

Responses:

No Elemental Damage - He cannot apply Shock/Frost

I was just playing with a Frost lute.

Does no one else use the Busker as a STR class?

Oooh, this is a cool idea. I do love distract.

Luck is a hidden stat, do you mean talent?

Whoops, I meant to mention that you can see it in your inventory.

Counter-attack isn't a rare melee attack; its protection from ambush.

OHHHHHHH. I hadn't ever seen the "melee attack," my roommate is the one who told me that's what it did. It's still crap....

As far as Hunter is concerned, it's hilarious that you believe they are anywhere near each other in

Remember the title of my post. The advanced classes are the ones I think are too weak. I didn't talk about how great the base classes are, I talked about how weak the advanced classes are, in comparison. I do like the mention of using Busker as a STR class. With Focus being a mechanic, that extra 4% to hit (BS) or 6% to hit (WC) is not very important.

Wtf, how's Hunter the most broken class in the game? How did you get to THAT conclusion?

I totally confused myself on your post. You started talking about Woodcutter, then said Hunter is the most broken. Since Hunters and Woodcutters are both kind of the same theme, I mixed the two up in my head (I was thinking Woodcutter/2H). Hunters are very strong, but 2H melee weapons are stronger in raw damage, which is why I can't agree that Hunters are "Waaaay" ahead of other classes.

Another thing I'll say is that because you can easily carry the telescope item (forget the name), to swap to, elite Ambush isn't that great, imo. I also only use it a few times a game, since I often WANT to pull in a bunch of nearby enemies to farm XP faster without wasting many turns moving to engage each monster individually. You do take more damage, though.

Steadfast is better than folks make it out to be, but I also recognize this is a game that's better to do fast damage, than to try and resist it. Especially since the anvil item seems to be bugged and doesn't proc atm (carried it through about 20 battles and didn't get a single proc, yesterday).

I think I'm gunna try an Herbalist with a Bow, a Str Busker, and a Lute Minstril next. I'm curious how all the support skills synergize