'rogue-like' ? meaning ?

[qmuddy]

i see this term a lot: what does roguelike mean ? thanks

[iliketurtles]

Generally, I think it tends to include lots of randomly generated stuff, and a high chance of an untimely demise, that you're meant to play over and over again, (hopefully) doing a bit better with each successive playthrough?

The term itself stems from a dungeon crawler from the 80's called Rogue.

[DFuxa]

Defining the Roguelike Genre[docs.google.com]

Here's my definition. I wouldn't say it necessarily falls in line with what everyone would use to determine what a Rogue-like is, but I think it does a good enough job in today's 'rogue-like' market.

[Taklu]

Originally posted by DFuxa:

Defining the Roguelike Genre[docs.google.com]

Here's my definition. I wouldn't say it necessarily falls in line with what everyone would use to determine what a Rogue-like is, but I think it does a good enough job in today's 'rogue-like' market.

One thing to note is Rogue-lite, which gives some kind of reward to extend to the next game play. I'm not sure if the unlocks in this game would fall into Rogue-Lite though. They do a good job at making the unlocks minimul in affect of gameplay I'm not sure that they make future runs easier which is the intention for that mechanic in Rogue-Lite.

However it's been well established that it is no longer a rogue-like/lite if there is no permadeath that makes you restart the game from the begining handicap or no handicap.

I would be willing to debate that if you can name a rogue-like/lite that doesn't have a permadeath, but since the genre isn't entirely well established there are even developers that don't know the established characteristics of rogue-like/lite. Rouge-lites have the window of forgiveness that rogue-likes do not have.

[DFuxa]

I'd be hard pressed to find one for sure, a rogue-like or rogue-lite that doesn't have permadeath in it. However, I imagine that if a developer wanted too they 'could' make a game without it. The key thing I believe a rogue-like needs is a 'permanent failure' which results in a game ending condition, but that wouldn't necessarily mean you need permanent death.

The closest example to such a concept I could likely give would be Hive Jump.

In that game, you essentially play as a 'Jumper Commander' that sends Jumpers into a Hive to battle Alien Bugs. You control the actions of a Jumper as they go about their mission, and when you lose your Jumpers you will automatically have a new Jumper respawn in from a transponder backpack that your is carried into the hive - after a cooldown which increases in time the deeper you go into the Hive. Your game only ends if your transponder backpack gets destroyed AND you have no Jumpers left to run with.

Arguably though, it is about how you interpret permadeath or what you are playing as. In Humour, I would say that in Hive Jump you play as the Transponder Backpack. I'd probably go further and say that in such a concept without permadeath, you would need some sort of 'observer' character which you are playing as, (such as say a god) that can't die specifically, but can face a permanent failure obstacle that if met means the end of the game (the completion of the god banishment device).

[Taklu]

Originally posted by DFuxa:

In that game, you essentially play as a 'Jumper Commander' that sends Jumpers into a Hive to battle Alien Bugs. You control the actions of a Jumper as they go about their mission, and when you lose your Jumpers you will automatically have a new Jumper respawn in from a transponder backpack that your is carried into the hive - after a cooldown which increases in time the deeper you go into the Hive. Your game only ends if your transponder backpack gets destroyed AND you have no Jumpers left to run with.

Sounds like it follows the terms to Rogue-Lite to me. I'm not sure if your the one that wrote the article, but I merely addressed it for this remark made in it
"THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT A GAME CANNOT BE A ROGUELIKE IF THE FEATURES OF PERMANENT FAILURE AND NO SAVING POINTS ARE NOT PRESENT."
A developer 'could' make any game they want to, but it's the final product that determines the genre. Rogue-like/lite weigh heavily on the Permanent Failure as you put it. Well it is a more accurate way of putting it than permadeath. Rogue-like/lite weigh heavily on a small niche of the game mechanics which is why it can span a vast group of genres which generally have more to do with gameplay than the mechanics of the game. It seems more like you are not in favor of using rogue-lite, which is understandable. However the two do vary enough to warrent distinct definitions, while similiar enough in gameplay.

[DFuxa]

I wrote the article. Part of the reasoning for writing it was because there really is no point in trying to define games with Rogue-like or Rogue-lite since at this point people have butchered any meaning in defining them differently.

I'll note I also wrote up the Steam Guide DFuxa's Big List of Steam Rogue-likes. Rather then defining thing as Rogue-like or Rogue-lite, I mostly look to define them based on other descriptors which still have some meaning to them.

[Taklu]

Originally posted by DFuxa:

I wrote the article. Part of the reasoning for writing it was because there really is no point in trying to define games with Rogue-like or Rogue-lite since at this point people have butchered any meaning in defining them differently.

I'll note I also wrote up the Steam Guide DFuxa's Big List of Steam Rogue-likes. Rather then defining thing as Rogue-like or Rogue-lite, I mostly look to define them based on other descriptors which still have some meaning to them.

That's like saying there is no point in defining MOBA games from RTS or JRPG and ARPG. You are contradicting yourself on opinions. No point in defining rogue-like so you write an article to define rogue-like, how does that make sense? Everything can't be bunched into one genre and you clearly understand that with your rogue-like list, but neglecting to understand the rogue-lite differences which is what butchers the meaning entirely. It's not a established genre and it's not defined easily through gameplay, which has been the usual method of defining gaming genres. Now we are getting games that break the boundry and branch mutliple genres together making it only harder to classify them. Gaming will end up needing more ways to categorize than only using genre, like theme and plot oriantation. We are already reaching that point where Female Protaganist is a popular Tag. You may not like the use of rogue-like mixed among rogue-lite confusing and blurring the lines from one another, but the difference between them is there. It's possible that the naming of them will change. It's still the early stage of a creation of a new genre.

[DFuxa]

I said there was no point in defining them differently, there is no contradiction there; it is simply an abandonment of trying to differ between what the terms mean and looking to other terms to do that job. If you look at my guide, I call everything a Rogue-like - and then I use other new terms which actually still have meaning to further defining games into different categories an help explain what makes them different from other games in the list.

As for being an established genre or not - I think at this point the only thing that isn't established is how it is defined. People know that Rogue-likes exist, they just can't agree on what the boundaries are. Even looking at your definition on Rogue-lites, I know that a video on my guide stated that for a game to be a Rogue-lite, it just needs to be like Rogue but played in real time.