so i take it these are just NES/SNES emu roms?

[DARK MATTER]

I honestly think this is pretty overpriced for a a few NES roms you can find online if you look hard enough, :) just remeber delete the roms after 24h thats the rule.

[GameLord]

24 hour rule is a lie. Even if you have the original rom chip, playing the dump on another computer is illegal.

[Gabby]

These are the same developers that made the Mega Man Legacy Collection. And the legal copyright holders.

What they actually do is take the original game files and recompile them into C++, so they can add new features like Boss Rush and Time Attack modes, fix old glitches and allow for true scaling up to 1080p resolutions.

Yeah, they're the original games. No, they're not just ROM dumps. And that rule is made up.

[Liandri]

Originally posted by Seraphna:

These are the same developers that made the Mega Man Legacy Collection. And the legal copyright holders.

What they actually do is take the original game files and recompile them into C++, so they can add new features like Boss Rush and Time Attack modes, fix old glitches and allow for true scaling up to 1080p resolutions.

Yeah, they're the original games. No, they're not just ROM dumps. And that rule is made up.

Do you have any source that could confirm this?

Here are features that are mentioned in the trailer:
- Boss rush and Time attack. There are separate screen sections of screen that represent the progress in these modes, according to the trailer. Those are certainly not exactly connected to the game itself - there is no indication on the game screen at all.
- Rewind. That's a trivial function for NES emulator, afaik. Nobody needs to recompile a game to implement that.
- 1080p. Note how games still don't support widescreen. Check the screenshots. There is really no "native scaling", it's being done the same way emulators do that.
- Museum mode. Clearly just a media materials separated from the actual gameplay.

The store page mentions "improved visuals", and again, I clearly don't see that on the screenshots. There are filters, yes, but any NES emulators have similar filters. I don't see any improved visuals. Correct me if I'm wrong.

You mention "fix old glitches". But neither the trailer or description on the store page say anything about that.

For now, I can only conclude that actual ROMs are left untouched, but they added separate copies of some ROMs hacked to allow Boss rush. As for Time attack, they probably don't even need a separate hack for that, just monitoring some values in memory.

It'd be great if anyone could provide more info.

[Gabby]

Yes I do.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023470/-It-s-Just-Emulation

Try the developers themselves.

Also, widescreen =/= 1080p. You're dissembling. 1080p is the resolution / pixel dimension. They say nothing about HD. Which is what you mean.

And no, that's not how emulators do it at all. Emulators use stretching to reach higher resolutions. They're using render. This is keenly different because stretching is literally what the name implies while render means their engine is outputting the display natively. It's not very noticeable but it appears important to some screen junkies.

MMLC they fixed many, many of the glitches, including most of the cheat codes that let you skip to the final Wily bosses. (Which were debug codes left in the games by accident, you can't attain them normally.) Any reasonable person would expect the same here.

Really, all of your points are merely dismissive, they don't actually eliminate the facts, just push your bias.

If you don't want to buy the game at this price, wait for a sale, there's no need to twist facts to justify this.

[Liandri]

Originally posted by Seraphna:

Yes I do.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023470/-It-s-Just-Emulation

Try the developers themselves.

I've watched few bits and I've found the moment where he says about statically recompiling the game code into C. However, it doesn't seem like that allowed them to fix bugs. It allowed them to build the Challenge mode, which is practically equal to very basic ROM hacking - re-using existing stages, inserting portals etc.

About recompiling: I'm sure you know that some emulators work through dynamically recompiling the game code. Which is not much different to static recompiling, technically.

There are also threads on MMLC forums where people say it's been confirmed to be fully ROM-based.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

Also, widescreen =/= 1080p. You're dissembling. 1080p is the resolution / pixel dimension. They say nothing about HD. Which is what you mean.

And no, that's not how emulators do it at all. Emulators use stretching to reach higher resolutions. They're using render. This is keenly different because stretching is literally what the name implies while render means their engine is outputting the display natively. It's not very noticeable but it appears important to some screen junkies.

Of course, I don't mean that 1080p = widescreen or HD. What I mean is, 1080p means stretching in all cases with these games. The internal resolution remains the same, and the emulator (be it non-commercial or the one included with the MMLC) takes care of the scaling. Note, I don't think it's important to talk about how it's being done in detail - upscaling the final frame buffer or drawing more pixels internally, I don't think it changes anything for the player. I'm sure many emulators do the same thing instead of scaling, because that's logically the better way to support higher resolution. The screen can't display more data than original internal resolution allows, otherwise it's only thanks to specific filters. Motion does not seem to be more pixel-perfect when rendered in higher resolution. "1080p" literally means "You can play this game in full screen mode", which doesn't make sense because most emulators can do the same.

With widescreen support, even if internal resolution stays low, it would really mean they re-worked the game engine. But apparently they did not touch it.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

MMLC they fixed many, many of the glitches, including most of the cheat codes that let you skip to the final Wily bosses. (Which were debug codes left in the games by accident, you can't attain them normally.) Any reasonable person would expect the same here.

I didn't find anything about fixing bugs on the video. Maybe you can point exact time frame where it's been discussed? Which exact bugs were fixed?
Also, think about how would they fix any bugs in the code they did not write. They've got access to the binary code of the game, and it came without any dev comments. I suspect that fixing bugs in ROM code would be far more difficult than creating a ROM hack for a Challenge mode.

I, however, know that a relatively big chunk of different old console game copies came with those "debug codes" that allowed certain cheating. Those were unoriginal or leaked copies, afair. Which means that original untouched cartridges did not include those by default.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

Really, all of your points are merely dismissive, they don't actually eliminate the facts, just push your bias.

I'm not so sure you can easily dismiss all of them. I'm saying that the work they've done on these games is practically non-existent, from what I can see. There are no new features, there are no improved assets. But there is an emulator engine that comes with certain ROM hacks (Boss rush, Time attack, Challenge mode) and memory value tracking (Stats saving for leaderboards). That's how it looks to me.

I'm not complaining that there are not enough valuable new features - those are classic games and they deserve to be left untouched, assets and gameplay wise. But they could at least not mislead people about the product features.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

If you don't want to buy the game at this price, wait for a sale, there's no need to twist facts to justify this.

I may never buy it, just like MMLC, due to inadequate regional pricing and questionable value. But I'm interested in discussing aspects of using emulation in commercial projects.

[Gabby]

Originally posted by Liandri:

Originally posted by Seraphna:

Yes I do.

http://www.gdcvault.com/play/1023470/-It-s-Just-Emulation

Try the developers themselves.

There are also threads on MMLC forums where people say it's been confirmed to be fully ROM-based.

Of course they are "ROM based", because the process requires using the original ROM file. However they are not just "ROM files in an emulator", which is the point I made.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

Also, widescreen =/= 1080p. You're dissembling. 1080p is the resolution / pixel dimension. They say nothing about HD. Which is what you mean.

And no, that's not how emulators do it at all. Emulators use stretching to reach higher resolutions. They're using render. This is keenly different because stretching is literally what the name implies while render means their engine is outputting the display natively. It's not very noticeable but it appears important to some screen junkies.

Of course, I don't mean that 1080p = widescreen or HD. What I mean is, 1080p means stretching in all cases with these games. The internal resolution remains the same, and the emulator (be it non-commercial or the one included with the MMLC) takes care of the scaling. Note, I don't think it's important to talk about how it's being done in detail - upscaling the final frame buffer or drawing more pixels internally, I don't think it changes anything for the player. I'm sure many emulators do the same thing instead of scaling, because that's logically the better way to support higher resolution. The screen can't display more data than original internal resolution allows, otherwise it's only thanks to specific filters. Motion does not seem to be more pixel-perfect when rendered in higher resolution. "1080p" literally means "You can play this game in full screen mode", which doesn't make sense because most emulators can do the same.

With widescreen support, even if internal resolution stays low, it would really mean they re-worked the game engine. But apparently they did not touch it.

No, it doesn't mean "stretching in all cases", it in fact never means that in video editing either. Formatting something to HD means scaling the work up and fitting it within the frame, which is why when you compare SD made movies to their HD counterparts you often get the top and bottom of scenes missing or the distant sides in the case of the rare movie that breaks 16:9.

What you're describing would officially make these games remakes, not ports, which is all they advertise them to be.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

MMLC they fixed many, many of the glitches, including most of the cheat codes that let you skip to the final Wily bosses. (Which were debug codes left in the games by accident, you can't attain them normally.) Any reasonable person would expect the same here.

I didn't find anything about fixing bugs on the video. Maybe you can point exact time frame where it's been discussed? Which exact bugs were fixed?
Also, think about how would they fix any bugs in the code they did not write. They've got access to the binary code of the game, and it came without any dev comments. I suspect that fixing bugs in ROM code would be far more difficult than creating a ROM hack for a Challenge mode.

I, however, know that a relatively big chunk of different old console game copies came with those "debug codes" that allowed certain cheating. Those were unoriginal or leaked copies, afair. Which means that original untouched cartridges did not include those by default.

They did not go over that as far as I know. That info was discovered by the players. I've tested it out myself too.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

Really, all of your points are merely dismissive, they don't actually eliminate the facts, just push your bias.

I'm not so sure you can easily dismiss all of them. I'm saying that the work they've done on these games is practically non-existent, from what I can see. There are no new features, there are no improved assets. But there is an emulator engine that comes with certain ROM hacks (Boss rush, Time attack, Challenge mode) and memory value tracking (Stats saving for leaderboards). That's how it looks to me.

I'm not complaining that there are not enough valuable new features - those are classic games and they deserve to be left untouched, assets and gameplay wise. But they could at least not mislead people about the product features.

Where are they misleading anyone about the product features? If anything it's those claiming the collection is pure ROM files with nothing at all added that are being misleading.

And that's my problem.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

If you don't want to buy the game at this price, wait for a sale, there's no need to twist facts to justify this.

I may never buy it, just like MMLC, due to inadequate regional pricing and questionable value. But I'm interested in discussing aspects of using emulation in commercial projects.

That's cool and also an option I'm not gonna bite your head off for. Despite the irony of people biting my head off for daring to purchase this product.

[Liandri]

Originally posted by Seraphna:

However they are not just "ROM files in an emulator", which is the point I made.

That's still unknown, from what I see. But from what I get on the video and product description, it would work this exact way. Plus specific programmed "bridges" to make stats tracking possible.

Reports say that it's possible to replace ROM files in MMLC with hacks of original ROMs. See redd.it/3igzxk

Originally posted by Seraphna:

No, it doesn't mean "stretching in all cases", it in fact never means that in video editing either. Formatting something to HD means scaling the work up and fitting it within the frame, which is why when you compare SD made movies to their HD counterparts you often get the top and bottom of scenes missing or the distant sides in the case of the rare movie that breaks 16:9.

What you're describing would officially make these games remakes, not ports, which is all they advertise them to be.

Well, it means "enlarging", precisely because nothing indicates that it's a remake. But the problem is, including "1080p" as a feature does not make much sense. See, when a port gets released, it's trivial to expect it to work at fullscreen mode, at whatever resolution you use. It's reasonable to expect emulation with such titles, and it's trivial to expect any emulator to be able to enlarge the game screen.

Perhaps what they really mean by that feature is that emulator shell is optimized for that resolution. They could aswell include the "4k" word, but they didn't.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

They did not go over that as far as I know. That info was discovered by the players. I've tested it out myself too.

So you mean there are no actual bug fixes? That's what I expected. Because I'm pretty sure most original games came out bug-free, or at least without problems worth fixing.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

Where are they misleading anyone about the product features? If anything it's those claiming the collection is pure ROM files with nothing at all added that are being misleading.

And that's my problem.

Well, the text about "improved visuals" seems misleading to me. Do you not agree?
Also, note the list of available languages. MMLC page mentions 8 languages, but does it mean that the game itself is translated at all? From what I see, only the emulator shell is translated.

[Gabby]

Originally posted by Liandri:

Originally posted by Seraphna:

However they are not just "ROM files in an emulator", which is the point I made.

That's still unknown, from what I see. But from what I get on the video and product description, it would work this exact way. Plus specific programmed "bridges" to make stats tracking possible.

Reports say that it's possible to replace ROM files in MMLC with hacks of original ROMs. See redd.it/3igzxk

If you read the full thread, that's kind of a disambiguation. Again, the program sources ROM files, yes, but these "ROM Files" if you tried to take them out and run them in an emulator would crash hard because they're not actually ROM files (or at least, not anymore). The files are used as references / datapoints for what the program is actually doing, not what's actually being run.

Very similar to how Chrono Trigger was ported over the the PSOne. The game's code ran natively from the PSOne, but the engine sourced an SNES ROM to grab the sounds, graphical assets and enemy stats. One major reason they had to do this was that the PSOne's sound chip was 100% incompatible with SNES Chiptunes. So they had to be processed and then output on their own. I'm sure they have their reasons here too, perhaps, most obviously, modern PCs aren't made to just natively play NES games.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

No, it doesn't mean "stretching in all cases", it in fact never means that in video editing either. Formatting something to HD means scaling the work up and fitting it within the frame, which is why when you compare SD made movies to their HD counterparts you often get the top and bottom of scenes missing or the distant sides in the case of the rare movie that breaks 16:9.

What you're describing would officially make these games remakes, not ports, which is all they advertise them to be.

Well, it means "enlarging", precisely because nothing indicates that it's a remake. But the problem is, including "1080p" as a feature does not make much sense. See, when a port gets released, it's trivial to expect it to work at fullscreen mode, at whatever resolution you use. It's reasonable to expect emulation with such titles, and it's trivial to expect any emulator to be able to enlarge the game screen.

Perhaps what they really mean by that feature is that emulator shell is optimized for that resolution. They could aswell include the "4k" word, but they didn't.

I kind of feel like we're crossing wires here? 1080p doesn't indicate HD. In the same way there isn't a special label for when you play a DVD in 1080p upscaling for SD videos on a TV. 1080p merely refers to a baseline resolution the program is going to run in, not the format in which the image will fill the screen.

If you fully understand the difference between resolution labels and the HD/SD label, their usage makes perfect sense as it's completely literal. Something to keep in mind is that the actual publisher of the game is Japanese, a company that's going to state things quite literally.

4K wouldn't have made sense because they're not promisng that the program will support any resolutions over 1920x1080 (you may notice also that "1080p" only references dimension height, not width, this wasn't by accident).

Originally posted by Seraphna:

They did not go over that as far as I know. That info was discovered by the players. I've tested it out myself too.

So you mean there are no actual bug fixes? That's what I expected. Because I'm pretty sure most original games came out bug-free, or at least without problems worth fixing.

There's a balance. Glitches that would be important to long time players of the game were kept intact, such as the pause screen glitch and the second controller debug in MMLC. However they removed glitches that were harmful or not intended to ever be allowed because they ruin the gameplay experience, such as the debug testing codes and the debug settings. (This is what I mean by Bug, instead of Glitch, specifically.)

I can attest these were fixed, since the codes to skip to the last Wily Stage in every game after MM1 (to which there is no code) no longer work in these versions. A dissappointement for new players that discover these codes and try to enter them. They will (most of the time if they work at all) only place you at the start of Wily Stage 1 with full buffs.

Originally posted by Seraphna:

Where are they misleading anyone about the product features? If anything it's those claiming the collection is pure ROM files with nothing at all added that are being misleading.

And that's my problem.

Well, the text about "improved visuals" seems misleading to me. Do you not agree?
Also, note the list of available languages. MMLC page mentions 8 languages, but does it mean that the game itself is translated at all? From what I see, only the emulator shell is translated.

Considering my above replies, I don't agree. They're trying to make it clear that these games aren't going to run in 220i with an upscaler, but will actually render to the resoltion of the game settings or desktop. Which, I have to tell you, to this day I still don't understand why that matters to some people, but it does. Despite Pixel distribution not actually changing no matter how you render / stretch that.

Language injection can be tricky, I'm not sure if they simply decided to only translate the interface because Mega Man isn't actually a game that really requires text to play or not, but that part may arguably be misleading. The interface does indeed seem to be the only thing that changes. I tried Spanish and French since those are two I can navigate easily and came up dry.

Though if you switch the game mode to Rockman is obviously switches to Japanese at least.

[Liandri]

Originally posted by Seraphna:

I kind of feel like we're crossing wires here? 1080p doesn't indicate HD. In the same way there isn't a special label for when you play a DVD in 1080p upscaling for SD videos on a TV. 1080p merely refers to a baseline resolution the program is going to run in, not the format in which the image will fill the screen.

If you fully understand the difference between resolution labels and the HD/SD label, their usage makes perfect sense as it's completely literal. Something to keep in mind is that the actual publisher of the game is Japanese, a company that's going to state things quite literally.

4K wouldn't have made sense because they're not promisng that the program will support any resolutions over 1920x1080 (you may notice also that "1080p" only references dimension height, not width, this wasn't by accident).

Do you mean the game supports other 1080p resolutions too?

Originally posted by Seraphna:

There's a balance. Glitches that would be important to long time players of the game were kept intact, such as the pause screen glitch and the second controller debug in MMLC. However they removed glitches that were harmful or not intended to ever be allowed because they ruin the gameplay experience, such as the debug testing codes and the debug settings. (This is what I mean by Bug, instead of Glitch, specifically.)

I can attest these were fixed, since the codes to skip to the last Wily Stage in every game after MM1 (to which there is no code) no longer work in these versions. A dissappointement for new players that discover these codes and try to enter them. They will (most of the time if they work at all) only place you at the start of Wily Stage 1 with full buffs.

Removing debug stuff != fixing bugs. Also, was it confirmed that original (non-leaked) games really included those? All of them?

Originally posted by Seraphna:

Considering my above replies, I don't agree. They're trying to make it clear that these games aren't going to run in 220i with an upscaler, but will actually render to the resoltion of the game settings or desktop. Which, I have to tell you, to this day I still don't understand why that matters to some people, but it does. Despite Pixel distribution not actually changing no matter how you render / stretch that.

Upscaling, or rendering to set resolution, even if technically different, is nothing unusual. Many emulators can do both modes.

Upscaling or rendering something at bigger resolutions while doing nothing to change the actual source look can not mean "improved visuals".