Reversals are too hard, hence they're broken.

[mjordan79]

Seriously, a reversal should be a thing that the opponent should be afraid of. With this difficulty, meaty attacks are always convenient to do on a knockdown, because the chance he does a succesful reversal under pressure is practically minimum. How one is supposed to do a safe reversal with this difficulty? They're broken at heart according to me. Conceptually, a reversal should be a player's decision, not an execution barrier. Come on. Not to mention you can do a reversal that should be invincible and you obtain a counter hit on a meaty attack, instead. This doesn't make sense: INVINCIBLE reversals that counter hits? Strange concept of invincibility. LOL.

This game is full of stupid decisions. They put some broken mechanics just to frustrate users, it seems, because there are no explanations for such choices, quite frankly. It's like you hate your own users. Take the mission 28, for example (reversal attacks). They're classified as "PVP Basics", but ranked four star for its difficulty.

Basic things being difficult only means a design flaw. As a player, I want to fight my opponent, not the system. Come on. What should I do? Training 300 hours just to do a reversal attack? Don't you see how brain dead this combat system is? Not suprised at all very few people play Guilty Gear at high levels, compared to other fighting games. The numbers speak for theirself.

[BeastChan23]

A reversal shouldn't be a get out of jail free card. You got hit, therefore knocked down, you're gonna have to handle the pressure on knockdown. Meaty attacks aren't free in this game, so if they mess up, even if you didn't get a reversal, you could possible escape, hit them, or back dash.
Not to mention just that, you have a couple of options apart from doing a reversal to deal with pressure, of course depending on your and the opponent's character.

[Godzilla.exe]

Oh great, this noob again.

Reversals are not hard to pull off, they take practice, but the input is not excessively demanding or unable to be consistently pulled off.

Originally posted by mjordan79:

Seriously, a reversal should be a thing that the opponent should be afraid of.

They are. Just because YOU can't do them, doesn't mean other people can not.

Originally posted by mjordan79:

Seriously, a reversal should be a thing that the opponent should be afraid of. With this difficulty, meaty attacks are always convenient to do on a knockdown, because the chance he does a succesful reversal under pressure is practically minimum

Again, YOU can't do a reversal.

Originally posted by mjordan79:

They're broken at heart according to me. Conceptually, a reversal should be a player's decision, not an execution barrier.

You're acting like there aren't execution barriers in every fighter for reversals. I know SFV doesn't have "ground punish" games, but they sure as hell have reversal punishers.

Originally posted by mjordan79:

This game is full of stupid decisions. They put some broken mechanics just to frustrate users, it seems, because there are no explanations for such choices, quite frankly. It's like you hate your own users. Take the mission 28, for example (reversal attacks). They're classified as "PVP Basics", but ranked four star for its difficulty.

You're bad, nuff said.

[ttv/AmaterrasVT]

Real word of advice here, try Leo.. His reversal is one of the easiest to pull off in the game, being a charge DP (e.g: Guile's flash kick), has invul on the startup frames, and deals massive damage that leads to hard knockdown and great meaty with his 5H / f.S.
You play too much SFV man, a lot of fighting games out there has full invul wake-up reversals.
Try learning the game more before ranting on the forums, because as I see it, you haven't put much time in the game.

ps: Leo is also great for people that transition from ground based fighters to anime fighters. I transferred from Tekken myself, and I found Leo's mostly grounded game and easy executions fits my playstyle perfectly.

[mjordan79]

Originally posted by Godzilla.exe:

Oh great, this noob again.

Reversals are not hard to pull off, they take practice, but the input is not excessively demanding or unable to be consistently pulled off.

Originally posted by mjordan79:

Seriously, a reversal should be a thing that the opponent should be afraid of.

They are. Just because YOU can't do them, doesn't mean other people can not.

Originally posted by mjordan79:

Seriously, a reversal should be a thing that the opponent should be afraid of. With this difficulty, meaty attacks are always convenient to do on a knockdown, because the chance he does a succesful reversal under pressure is practically minimum

Again, YOU can't do a reversal.

Originally posted by mjordan79:

They're broken at heart according to me. Conceptually, a reversal should be a player's decision, not an execution barrier.

You're acting like there aren't execution barriers in every fighter for reversals. I know SFV doesn't have "ground punish" games, but they sure as hell have reversal punishers.

Originally posted by mjordan79:

This game is full of stupid decisions. They put some broken mechanics just to frustrate users, it seems, because there are no explanations for such choices, quite frankly. It's like you hate your own users. Take the mission 28, for example (reversal attacks). They're classified as "PVP Basics", but ranked four star for its difficulty.

You're bad, nuff said.

Avoid to answer me. You don't possess neither the technical skills nor the knowledge to answer to one of my posts. Besides this, you answer with obvious things: of course I CAN'T DO IT consistently. That's the main debate I was opening. A reversal should not possess any technical barrier. Before continuining with this discussion, you would better post a video of yours where you do 10 times in a row a reversal. Let's make a bunch of laughs. Moreover, how dare you to call me a "noob" when the most played fighting game you have has been played for only 12 hours and you don't even own GG.
I won't say you where you have to go, but I think you already know, at this point.

[mjordan79]

Originally posted by Praise Lord Daisuke:

You play too much SFV man, a lot of fighting games out there has full invul wake-up reversals.
Try learning the game more before ranting on the forums, because as I see it, you haven't put much time in the game.

Maybe you don't understand the main topic. Every fighting game has a full invincible reversal. Only this one has a technical barrier on it.
KI possesses the same difficulty of SFV and so SkullGirls and MKX. GG is the only game I have played with this difficulty. You can say I put too much time on SFV, but I have no technical barriers with fighting games I have played even less than GG, go figure. So please, don't use fake accusations just to flame. If you think the game i s perfect, good for you, this thread is not for you then.

Originally posted by BeastChan23:

A reversal shouldn't be a get out of jail free card. You got hit, therefore knocked down, you're gonna have to handle the pressure on knockdown. Meaty attacks aren't free in this game, so if they mess up, even if you didn't get a reversal, you could possible escape, hit them, or back dash.
Not to mention just that, you have a couple of options apart from doing a reversal to deal with pressure, of course depending on your and the opponent's character.

You're wrong. A reversal is a card to play that can be beaten by a safe jump, so it's not an easy escape anyway, independently from its technical barrier. Isn't a jail free card? And what is it? A mechanic that sits there just to be fun? A reversal, as I said, should possess a tradeoff in rewards / risks. Its invincibility provides the reward, a safe jump provides the risk. So its technical difficulty has nothing to do with the whole role of an invincible reversal. A reversal should not be more difficult than an invincible backdash on wakeup, because a backdash on wakeup is just another option the player has to recover. This is how every other fighting game works. I understand Guilty Gear has the policy to transform even easy things in something you need training. But at least don't justify it with non-sense. Because classifying it as a "PvP Basics" and then marking it with four star difficulty is just like it seems: idiotic. If you put difficulty on basic mechanics, you have a design flaw. No matter how much that flaw was a wanted feature.

[Silver]

So if I get this right, you're struggling with the reversal timing windows because safe jumps and meaties can beat them? You do know reversal DPs dont even work in SFV anymore unless you EX them right?

[mjordan79]

Originally posted by Rio Brando:

So if I get this right, you're struggling with the reversal timing windows because safe jumps and meaties can beat them? You do know reversal DPs dont even work in SFV anymore unless you EX them right?

Unuseful comparison. The way you activate it in a game is part of the game mechanic, has nothing to do with technical barrier on basic things.
No, I'm not struggling with reversals because of safe jumps. I'm struggling with them just because the time window is insanely small for a basic mechanic like this. This doesn't mean in 10 hours I won't achieve a perfect execution. It just means that if I need 10 hours to exercise a reversal, something in the game is wrong. Simple like that.

[ttv/AmaterrasVT]

Originally posted by mjordan79:

Maybe you don't understand the main topic. Every fighting game has a full invincible reversal. Only this one has a technical barrier on it.
KI possesses the same difficulty of SFV and so SkullGirls and MKX. GG is the only game I have played with this difficulty. You can say I put too much time on SFV, but I have no technical barriers with fighting games I have played even less than GG, go figure. So please, don't use fake accusations just to flame. If you think the game i s perfect, good for you, this thread is not for you then.

Except, there's almost no technical barriers at all? If you can do wake-up EX DP with Ryu on SFV, you can do the same here, it's basically the same stuff, what do you mean by "technical barriers"? I can wake-up DP everyday with pretty much every character with DP, I don't really see any "technical barriers" there.
Also I'm not flaming, I'm really trying to help there, but whew, you seem like a really emotional and heavily biased fellow (not to say I'm not biased, heck, my Steam username gave it away), but that attitude really is not helping anyone that really wants to help you there.

I repeat myself again, put more time into the game, and learn easier characters. And try not to read every post in a condescending manner. Some people are just genuinely trying to help here.

[mjordan79]

Originally posted by Praise Lord Daisuke:

Originally posted by mjordan79:

Maybe you don't understand the main topic. Every fighting game has a full invincible reversal. Only this one has a technical barrier on it.
KI possesses the same difficulty of SFV and so SkullGirls and MKX. GG is the only game I have played with this difficulty. You can say I put too much time on SFV, but I have no technical barriers with fighting games I have played even less than GG, go figure. So please, don't use fake accusations just to flame. If you think the game i s perfect, good for you, this thread is not for you then.

Except, there's almost no technical barriers at all? If you can do wake-up EX DP with Ryu on SFV, you can do the same here, it's basically the same stuff, what do you mean by "technical barriers"? I can wake-up DP everyday with pretty much every character with DP, I don't really see any "technical barriers" there.
Also I'm not flaming, I'm really trying to help there, but whew, you seem like a really emotional and heavily biased fellow (not to say I'm not biased, heck, my Steam username gave it away), but that attitude really is not helping anyone that really wants to help you there.

I repeat myself again, put more time into the game, and learn easier characters. And try not to read every post in a condescending manner. Some people are just genuinely trying to help here.

How I couldn't be biased when all you obtain is (unrequested) comparisons with SFV just to flame, "noob", "you can't do it, others can", "you're bad", wrong (biased) explanations on what a reversal is, etc? And you're calling "my attitude"?
If you can't explain where this technical barrier is, can you please write to ASW saying that they have to fix the difficulty classification for the reversal challenge? They have a mismatch on what players are experiencing and what they're advertising. I'll put more time in the game but this is not the point. The point is I SHOULDN'T PUT MORE TIME INTO THE GAME JUST TO DO REVERSALS. This is the point. Understood now? Easy concept, isn't it.

[his1roguenation]

The main difference between GG and SF4/5 is that in SF you can mash reversals using a d>df command repeatedly. Capcom even changed characters' movesets so that you can mash dps you couldn't mash in the past (e.g. Yang's roll kick).
But there's more; secondly, in SF4/5 and 3, moves will come out through a buffer alone, an example would be that you press c.mk>hadouken but you pressed the punch before the mk even connected, yet it came out. Also negative edge, something most people take for granted, yet it only exists in SF (and in case of Eddie/Zato).

All that and the fact that SF has an absolutely laughable input buffer in every installment (SF3 had 8 frames, 4 and 5 maybe 6, I didn't really read into that), while GG is known for 3, but it feels like it's a bit more in Xrd and BB, again, I didn't read into it because exact numbers only matter for TA combos.

In total you can mash stuff, have an insane window to succeed and even if you fail, you'll still get the desired result through sheer luck. Absolutely none of this applies to GG.

That to clarify why a scrub has problems with GG he didn't have in SF, now to this ♥♥♥♥ here:

Originally posted by mjordan79:

The point is I SHOULDN'T PUT MORE TIME INTO THE GAME JUST TO DO REVERSALS. This is the point. Understood now? Easy concept, isn't it.

Yeah, this game requires strict inputs in every situation, thus reversals should be performable by missing the correct moment by 15 frames, I guess. And to be able to do it, unlike newbies, you shouldn't have to go through any kind of training.
We get it, you give reversals a rather high priority and you are angry because you find it difficult to do them, all that is justified. Sadly everything else you said is not.

[Shini]

It's one of the basic techniques of PVP, but not the basics of the game. We're not even talking character-specific here.

[Axle]

Before you DP, watch your character animation as he gets up. You will find the timing there. It doesn't take "10 hours" , it just requires you to stop for a second and pay attention. So maybe you won't be able to do it in the heat of the moment right away..but you know...that's part of the balance. Meaty attacks require careful timing(as they do in every fighting game) and it's only fair that so do reversals.

Street Fighter was basically the only series that made DPs this big "boogeyman". It forced top players to respect the option of lesser players and make steamroll victories less common. Other fighting games don't hold your hand like this, and give more options to beat the DP, however they still keep it in the game as a rock paper scissors option in fighting games.

♥♥♥♥ man, I play a character that doesn't even have a DP and has the 2nd lowest health in the game. You just gotta play smart and use the other defensive options available to you.

When they do a meaty, just ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ block and take that L. Start using faultless defense to push them back and end their offense or use blitz properly. Dead Angle will put you back in neutral straight out for 50 meter.

This game has more defensive options than the majority of fighting games (including all SF games), you just have to use them properly.

[Inuaz]

Street Fighter V isn't more played because the game is good. It's more played because Capcom has infinitely more marketing money to advertise the game and put large sums into their tournaments for the competitive players. So many competitive players are complaining about SFV and especially season 2 for the games bad decisions, but they won't quit because no other fighting game has the same prize pools. Arc Sys doesn't have that kind of cash to toss at a game that Capcom does to give SFV the illusion of being a good game.

Guilty Gear was still the 2nd most popular fighting game at EVO2016. So when you say "other fighting games", literally the only other one that is beating Guilty Gear with tournament entrant numbers is Street Fighter V.

[kisald/avohkii]

so, OP, i assume your first post was written when you were salty, and you calmed down since then.

I assume that you know that GG is an okizeme and aggressivity-rewarding game, too, which means you HAVE to keep pressure.

I assume too that you experienced a bit the fact that, in this game, pretty much everything leads to combo once you know your character a bit.

Right now, the only character that can combo out of getting pressured is Jam, by Parry>P>K, but this works ONLY on counter hits and is unsafe on block, suck as parry>P>P.

So, in this game, having an easy reversal would be having a "no risk, high reward" option, which would be totally breaking the balance (imagine if any noob sol could easily do CH VV>kudakero).

Also, have you ever tried to DAA ?

[Kalintz]

Shini just ignore him, you don't see top players complaining about reversals or universal mechanics, and you know why? because they are good as it is now.