Vehicle Handling discourages speed! Sharp turns + Speed + Ship Handling = Slower game

[AgentFlea]

I love the game! But it has gotten less fun the faster I try to go.


All this is from the perspective of playing Tier 4 and absolutely maxing out speed and setting fast lap times.



This is pretty much an offshoot of the "Gaining speed from hitting a corner" thread
I think this is, and has always been the real reason why that 'strategy' exists in the first place.


Don't you think that giving the strafe sharper turning capability will greatly increase the general speed of the game?
Sharper turning as well as being able to change momentum quicker.

I imagine how awesome it would be if you were limited by your vehicles max speed, rather than limitations of your turning - making some turns impossible above a certain speed


This wouldn't be a problem at all if the tracks didn't have some really technical sharp turns
Because otherwise I'd say the game facilitates the ships handling quite nicely.

But I don't understand some turns unless the devs intended to slow you down in order to make the turn.


I know everyone in the "Collide with wall to keep speed" thread is feeling this







Post from that thread:

Originally posted by Vadara:

The ships just need to friggin' turn better, they have ludicrously large turning radii for how fast they are and how narrow and technical the tracks get at times.

This


I don't think *Some of the turns* are balanced for the handling of the ships

The more time I spend with Tier 4 ships the more the problem shows itself



Narrow/Technical tracks =/= very slow turning - YES even with strafing

And yes I know how to strafe properly. Problem is, during a strafe you keep way too much momentum so you end up bouncing off a wall and boosting off it to maintain speed.

The boost and collision is worth doing as opposed to slowing down and being resctricted to a narrow racing line required to take the turn clean and swift


Check out this small S turn at 5:56

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2ANmmyTdqw&t=5m50s


That turn would be impossible at higher speeds. Not because of lack of skill, because of the slow turning and lack of responsiveness with strafing. The slide you get from countersteering is not responsive enough for those turns at high speeds.

It's good for drifting yeah, but cutting sharply around corners while maintaining speed ... not so much


Just check out how ridiculous some Alaskan tracks are at Tier 4. It discourages you from going full speed. You should be allowed to play at over-the-top speeds just so long as you're able to take the corners and have the reflexes to adjust very quickly.

But the turning limitations are what stop that. So slowing down is a requirement.

I want to be speed-capped by my own lack of skill and ships top speed, not by the mechanics, and lack of responsiveness.

[Simatron3000]

I believe they increased the speed loss from wall hits recently but yeah it's still faster to strategically tap walls.As far as I can tell you can make it round every track without hitting the wall without lifting the throttle or touching the brake with proper cornering, it's just slower. Not really sure what the solution is. I'm sure I can get some of the guys from the discord to do a lap on any course you without hitting the wall whilst not slowing down.

[AgentFlea]

Originally posted by Simatron3000:

I'm sure I can get some of the guys from the discord to do a lap on any course you without hitting the wall whilst not slowing down.

Slowing down is a must. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong though.

Still, I'd love for the game to give me to the capability to boost into a sharp corner and use my own skills to maneuver the corner using counter-steering strafe

[Simatron3000]

Originally posted by Aegis:

Originally posted by Simatron3000:

I'm sure I can get some of the guys from the discord to do a lap on any course you without hitting the wall whilst not slowing down.

Slowing down is a must. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong though.

Still, I'd love for the game to give me to the capability to boost into a sharp corner and use my own skills to maneuver the corner using counter-steering strafe

What do you mean by slowing down exactly? Obviously you can't take corners the same speed as a straight but the game was designed so that you shouldn't need to brake with proper cornering.

[AgentFlea]

I guess I'm spoiled by truly fast games. I hate to use F-Zero as an example but...

THAT game is fast. Limited only by the ships speed and player control.
If you look at the records for fastest times in that game, the game clearly gave the player the tools to go at Max speed 100% of the time. Including turns. Which was some of the most thrilling ag racing I've had.

This comes close but as I mentioned, being forced to slow down at all takes away from the 'fastest racer' moniker

[Simatron3000]

https://youtu.be/An1GE5hDQS8

Here's an example of speed with minimal wall touching, even shows the controller input so you can see he isn't braking.

Is your complaint seriously that you can't go full speed 100% of the time and therefore the game isn't fast?

[Drowne]

Originally posted by Aegis:

Originally posted by Simatron3000:

I'm sure I can get some of the guys from the discord to do a lap on any course you without hitting the wall whilst not slowing down.

Slowing down is a must. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong though.

Still, I'd love for the game to give me to the capability to boost into a sharp corner and use my own skills to maneuver the corner using counter-steering strafe

Get in the top10 of any class 4 time attack and then you can say something like that.

Up to that point, you don't know what you are talking about.

[E-Dragon]

It is true that you lose a ton of speed on sharp corner, but if you are good at the game then you can reduce that. Obviously it would be awesome to race with super speed through the entire track, but adding that speedloss also forces you to optimize those corners to maintain as much speed as possible. Wall bouncing is one of them and it's a bad example, but there is also other stuff, such as replacing steering with strafing, presteering into a corner and lining up your boosts correctly.

[AgentFlea]

Originally posted by Drowne:

Originally posted by Aegis:

Slowing down is a must. I'd love for someone to prove me wrong though.

Still, I'd love for the game to give me to the capability to boost into a sharp corner and use my own skills to maneuver the corner using counter-steering strafe

Get in the top10 of any class 4 time attack and then you can say something like that.

Up to that point, you don't know what you are talking about.

Really? You're gonna go there?
Well done ignoring my points and going straight to a "I don't see you doing better" type of responses

Very disappointing.

Originally posted by E-Dragon:

It is true that you lose a ton of speed on sharp corner, but if you are good at the game then you can reduce that. Obviously it would be awesome to race with super speed through the entire track, but adding that speedloss also forces you to optimize those corners to maintain as much speed as possible.

Yes, it would be awesome. And yeah, slowing down to take sharp turns is gameplay in of itself.
But considering how often that happens (not too much, cause like I said, the tracks are suited for very stiff ships) you can't help but notice all the times you gotta slow down to make sharp turns.

And yeah, I know the methods to clearing sharp turns. That's not the issue.
It's maintaining higher speeds - the mechanics stops you and so you have no choice but to lose speed in one form or another.

I don't know how anyone could deny the awesomeness of maintaining those crazy speeds throughout the entire track. The top players would have even faster times and would make for some crazy replays.

[S2riker]

I agree with you that the strafe mechanic discourages the maintenance of speed when trying to navigate tracks cleanly; this is something I posted about way back in the closed beta days (see below for reference). Since it hasn't changed since, I wouldn't expect any major adjustments. I've come to appreciate the strategy though of learning the tracks and knowing which turns to wall-bounce, which ones to take cleanly and which to drift through. That's not to say I still wouldn't like a stronger strafe though :).

An interesting side-effect of the wall-bouncing is that ship health becomes a major priority while racing whereas it might not otherwise. If you equip the Magnetic Stabilizer powerup you can pretty much take any turn cleanly, but you'll lose out on the extra speed of not being able to equip the Augmented Propeller.

https://www.reddit.com/r/redout/comments/4y1r21/my_beta_impressions_from_a_longtime_futuristic/

[Wylie28]

Originally posted by Aegis:

Originally posted by Drowne:

Get in the top10 of any class 4 time attack and then you can say something like that.

Up to that point, you don't know what you are talking about.

Really? You're gonna go there?
Well done ignoring my points and going straight to a "I don't see you doing better" type of responses

Very disappointing.

Originally posted by E-Dragon:

It is true that you lose a ton of speed on sharp corner, but if you are good at the game then you can reduce that. Obviously it would be awesome to race with super speed through the entire track, but adding that speedloss also forces you to optimize those corners to maintain as much speed as possible.

Yes, it would be awesome. And yeah, slowing down to take sharp turns is gameplay in of itself.
But considering how often that happens (not too much, cause like I said, the tracks are suited for very stiff ships) you can't help but notice all the times you gotta slow down to make sharp turns.

And yeah, I know the methods to clearing sharp turns. That's not the issue.
It's maintaining higher speeds - the mechanics stops you and so you have no choice but to lose speed in one form or another.

I don't know how anyone could deny the awesomeness of maintaining those crazy speeds throughout the entire track. The top players would have even faster times and would make for some crazy replays.

I cant see any way to allow full speed corners without significantly lowering the skill gap. Any methods will turn taking corners from something that takes a lot of experiance and knowledge, aka skill, into mere reaction time. That to me makes a super boring game. That removes a significant draw of this game, the huge sense of improvement. The skill gap is so large even after 200 hours there still a lot i have to learn. Getting a better time still feels like a feat because it means ive learned something. Ive gotten better, not just had a lucky run where i reacted a little faster.

I think what you are looking for is not actually a racing game. Something more along the lines of Thumper. That fits your want for no slow-downs reaction based gameplay.

[AgentFlea]

Amazing! You actually made a non-useless post and discussed the topic!

So all the best times and top players in F-Zero takes lower skill? F-Zero is a boring game?
One of the biggest influences on the genre has a low skill cap? Is that what you're saying?

I don't think you've played the game

F-Zero GX vehicles responded very very well. Downright slippery if you tune your vehicle that way. I'd argue that takes even more finesse to control at top speeds. Being extremely careful on the super sensitive thumbstuck whilst preparing to drift into a corner is just as hard or more than Redout - which is more oriented on throttle control and emphasis on a very strict racing line.

That racing line is another thing that makes it feel like control is taken away from the player
It's a much more strict racer along the lines of realistic driving games - not AG racers
In that throttle control and a huge emphasis on racing lines.
The smoothness of Redout has a charm of it's own though. But sometimes it feels way too on rails with it's narrow, movement restricted tracks

Feels less like frantic racing and more like fine tuning simulator - which is fine...

If the sharp angles didn't force you to slow down


By the way, I checked out Thumper - That's what I mean by on-rails. Could you imagine if Redout tracks got even narrower?! I don't get the appeal of having less freedom of movement for the sake of focusing on realistic linear and stale - FOCUS ON RACING LINE type of racing that a Racing Sim would have


Honestly, I don't see the appeal of 'super fast speeds!' when it's restricted to certain easy as hell segments of the track.

[S2riker]

Originally posted by Aegis:

Amazing! You actually made a non-useless post and discussed the topic!

So all the best times and top players in F-Zero takes lower skill? F-Zero is a boring game?
One of the biggest influences on the genre has a low skill cap? Is that what you're saying?

I don't think you've played the game

The top-tier F-Zero GX players use a plethora of physics-breaking tricks to attain the fastest possible lap times in the game (MTS, snaking, shift boosting, etc.). Those tricks simply aren't possible within Redout's mechanics, so simply allowing for sharper turns and higher speed maintenance doesn't create the same skill ceiling that F-Zero provides. I think this is what Wylie28 is trying to get at: that Redout's meta of wall-bouncing, boost memorization, etc. is what gives Redout its high skill ceiling. I'm with you that conceptually the game should have included a more agile turning system, but that's a decision that I feel in retrospect needed to be accounted for before the game actually released, since the track designs are built around the current handling model.

[Supa]

It doesnt discourage speed.

It discourages slowing down. And not slowing down means you will hit walls. But since the slowing down slows you more than hitting a wall its... yea.

[Supa]

Originally posted by Simatron3000:

https://youtu.be/An1GE5hDQS8

Here's an example of speed with minimal wall touching, even shows the controller input so you can see he isn't braking.

Is your complaint seriously that you can't go full speed 100% of the time and therefore the game isn't fast?

>minimal wall touching
>WARNING HULL BREACH

[AgentFlea]

Oh for sure! Every game is gonna have it's meta.

I can forgive the on-rails track design of Redout, if it simply lived up it's description
by allowing us to get that high speed experience - All the time - as long as we can handle it


Initially I loved the game, but as I improved I started realizing it's the lack of control that's making the game force me to slow down. All this emphasis on speed, only to constantly having to slow down and monitor your speed...



And yeah Redout is too settled for any changes. And seeing by the devs response, he's fine with it feeling so rigid.




F-Zero: You move left on a straightaway, you turn left and smash into a wall
Redout: You move left on a straightaway, you gradually move to the left

Even straightaways required keeping your steering in check, because of how much control you have of the ship

In Redout, straightaways are pretty much - look at the pretty effects, oh! Better start slowing down to take the corner!