Install Steam
login
|
language
简体中文 (Simplified Chinese)
繁體中文 (Traditional Chinese)
日本語 (Japanese)
한국어 (Korean)
ไทย (Thai)
Български (Bulgarian)
Čeština (Czech)
Dansk (Danish)
Deutsch (German)
Español - España (Spanish - Spain)
Español - Latinoamérica (Spanish - Latin America)
Ελληνικά (Greek)
Français (French)
Italiano (Italian)
Bahasa Indonesia (Indonesian)
Magyar (Hungarian)
Nederlands (Dutch)
Norsk (Norwegian)
Polski (Polish)
Português (Portuguese - Portugal)
Português - Brasil (Portuguese - Brazil)
Română (Romanian)
Русский (Russian)
Suomi (Finnish)
Svenska (Swedish)
Türkçe (Turkish)
Tiếng Việt (Vietnamese)
Українська (Ukrainian)
Report a translation problem
Discussions Rules and Guidelines
9 
Report this post
Ender Engine Games that hint was perfect and was exactly what I needed, you're a star.
The piece I was apparently missing (and still don't understand) is how you're supposed to make the assumptions necessary to conclude that the fluid "recipe" is read vertically. It's far more logically read as a list of the fluids comprising the extract of each flower (horizontally).
In other words, everything up to that point in the game was almost blindingly obvious...but the idea that you're supposed to read a chart as summing downward but with the "total" at the top makes no sense. Even knowing that this is the answer (and I was well aware that the 6 slots for the flower "juicer" might be an intentional constraint hinting at something) it still seems wildly illogical.
For me, this was one of the least satisfying answers to any puzzle game I've ever played (granted incomplete information puzzle games tend to be the worst offenders with subjective design).
I tried to combine the *rows* as needed and multiply the corresponding powders to try to fit into the "6 flowers must be extracted at once" constraint while ending up with the correct overall proportions for the melting recipe. This of course doesn't work, but it does work out mathematically given my chart interpretation.
To make this puzzle maximum anti-fun and unsatisfying, the devs made sure that:
- Every attempt requires minutes of furious movement and clicking inputs to test
- The barrels serve as nonsensical distractions. You cannot know whether they are distractions yet they are massively interactable with several fluid-related objects (I had to look up the fact that they are actually just dumpsters and apparently even people who have finished this game couldn't figure that out). Their function as dumpsters makes no sense because it is a duplicate function of the cauldron drain and by that point you already have proof from the rejuvenation process and crystal distance that the devs have no compunction about wasting your time requiring running back and forth on even the slightest mistake.
- Related to the above, you must make assumptions that you have all pieces of the puzzle and that you aren't working on something straight up unsolvable until something else is resolved. Maybe one of the flowers is mislabeled or maybe there is another hidden scroll that explains how they cancel parts of each other out.
- Relating to the above, since it appears there isn't actually any parallel path you can take, you have no option to obtain hints on this puzzle by completing other puzzles, and the "inventory item hints" are borderline offensively obvious. A hint such as "this scoop is used for scooping" isn't helpful. A hint such as "there is a spectrophotometer beside the juicer because the juicer outputs will be identified as liquid 1,2,3, or 4" would actually help...
- Observing that the missing fluid is supposedly "red" (from the colors beneath the Alchemy lab dispensers) is (a) meaningless unless you already made the leap that you must obtain that fluid in pure form and plant derivatives aren't combined directly and (b) would only serve as a validation if you knew that there aren't any other reds from the plant extractor's ~9 choose 6 combinations and (c) that it's not a distraction in the exact same way the barrels are distractions
Clearly a significant number of people have complete this game and didn't run into this confusion. I can't "prove" that this puzzle is actually unfair or illogical. However, I was motivated to write this post because I have completed a pretty sizable number of puzzle games (usually 100% without breaking a sweat) and it has been a long time since I've encountered a puzzle like this where l ended up looking up the solution and it made me want to quit the game not because it was "hard" but because it made so little sense and required arbitrary assumptions without which you could be stuck for days.
A quick Google search for "tally mark graphs" seems to confirm my recollection...which is that virtually nobody constructs graphs like that. I see dozens of horizontal graphs but none vertical.
Am I in fact the only player who had trouble with this?
That’s a long post, I will try and go through it point-by-point explaining our thought process and reacting to your observarions.
While I understand the frustration this puzzle caused to you, I can’t agree with your statements about a few things. You started this puzzle with an assumption, where none was needed.
“How are you supposed to make the assumptions necessary to conclude that the recipe is read vertically?”
Easy, by observation. Reading it horizontally doesn’t make sense, liquids don’t turn into flowers. How would it work horizontally? Example: In order to get “ileha’orav” you just pour “Terv”? What then? You assumed that it was read horizontally, it confused you in solving the puzzle, and it looked really illogical. Because your assumption was fundamentally wrong, there was simply no assumption needed. I searched for “ingredients chart” and found a few similar charts:
https://www.gingerheatmusclerub.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/finalchart-1.jpg
http://www.thailandunique.com/image/catalog/thai-red-bull-ingredients-chart.jpg
It would be wrong to assume that to get caffeine you have to get 20+50mg of Red Bull, or that Vitamin B6 is extracted from 0 Theoplex-L Formula Red Bull and 1.2mg of regular Red Bull.
Sorry, I can't grasp the concept of multiplying powders. Using “Occam’s razor” is usually a good idea when playing Quern.
“Every attempt requires minutes of furious movement and clicking inputs to test”
This is not a trial and error puzzle, there shouldn’t be too much running around involved - this puzzle should be solved by planning and execution, much like how real life chemistry and cooking works. Once the puzzle “clicks”, it really is an easy one, it’s just follow the instructions and don’t mess it up.
I don’t get how the “barrels” - bins are nonsensical distractions. They are bins you can use to empty any container. Also, you can’t empty the shears you cut the plants with into the cauldron. Use case: You’ve started working on the crystal-melting potion, the cauldron already has the “missing liquid” (the red one) in it which you extracted from flowers. You misplace your test tube and get a liquid you should not use in the recipe. Do you use the cauldron drain and start working on the red liquid again, or do you use one of the bins and continue with the correct ingredients?
“Maybe one of the flowers is mislabeled or maybe there is another hidden scroll that explains how they cancel parts of each other out.” - is there anything pointing towards that? You have the recipe, you have the juicer, you have the test tube and all the powders. We tried our best to let our players know if they are missing a piece.
We deliberately lock players on this little middle-island and only let them out once they have a clear understanding of how the area works. How recipes, flowers, liquids and juicers work.
“the inventory item hints are borderline offensively obvious.” - retrospectively, yes. Once you’ve figured them out, yes. You just chose the most obvious item (a spoon) and used it as an example. If you want direct hints, there are outside sources for that. If you want little nudges, you can use the item hints. I am sure there are some useful ones :)
“Observing that the missing fluid is red”: Nice catch! That is a great way to double-check if your understanding of the recipe was correct - once your liquid comes out the juicer. Why the hell would it be a distraction? Don’t assume there are distractions. You could be assuming that the professor lied and gave you the wrong recipe. But that would also be really-really silly. :)
The stains are there for the player to feel happy when the juicer outputs the red liquid, and dump it if it has a different color - a thing we added to tackle the “minutes of furious movement and clicking inputs to test” part.
I hope you will have fun with the remainder of the game, you’ve just barely started it :) The good parts should outweigh the frustration this part caused you. Good luck!
I appreciate the thoughtful response.
-"Easy, by observation. Reading it horizontally doesn’t make sense, liquids don’t turn into flowers."
Interesting. I think I see what you are saying, but that is not what I was saying. I was saying that flowers turn into liquids when crushed...but not *pure* liquids, and that is exactly what a horizontal (left to right) reading implies. If I were to crush flowers and get liquids out, I will often get a complex mixture of multiple bioactive liquids/compounds although some flowers may only contain some compounds and there may be overlap between different species of flowers (which is of course also how literal biochemical composition of plants works).
I would also note that your chart examples, while not unreasonable, expressly **do not use tally marks**. Tally marks are the core reason why I read the chart horizontally.
-"In order to get “ileha’orav” you just pour “Terv”"
So my interpretation was not that you "make flowers" with Terv, but if you were to crush "Flower X" then you may get a mixture that is 1-parts Terv and 2-parts Taxh. "Flower Z" may give 7-parts Terv 3-parts Blerv (can't remember the other names) and 0 parts everything else.
So, in my interpretation, if you need Taxh for a formula, and you can only get Taxh in ratios of 1-parts Terv and 2-parts Taxh (and other combinations) then what you have is a system of equations which requires multiplying the right-hand final formula until it fits the left-hand ratios of Taxh/Terv/etc. that you can physically extract from the plants.
And, unfortunately in my case, there is a relatively simple solution requiring only a "multiply by 2" of the melting formula if you use my interpretation of a "plant->multiple liquid components" chart. That is where I got stuck.
-"Using “Occam’s razor” is usually a good idea when playing Quern."
This is highly debatable, unless your house is also filled with chessboard-wired hidden-staircase-control dials :).
-"I don’t get how the “barrels” - bins are nonsensical distractions. They are bins you can use to empty any container. "
I'm definitely *not* saying that the barrels wouldn't save time if you knew how to use them.
I'm saying that it is *precisely because* they are so flexible that they are wildly distracting. I would have staked quite some money that they were used (in some way, shape, or form) for progression.
Why isn't there a remote control to summon my crystals torches back to me from the telescope? Why can't I teleport by clicking? Why can't I kick a footpedal to eject all the sound-pots off the rotating pedastel and into my inventory sorted by size? It is precisely because I am already exposed to varying levels of inconvenience and menial effort everywhere else that I *do not* expect a highly interactable object to be just a "convenience".
In fact, up until that point in the game, I cannot think of any object which can be interacted with by multiple items that isn't crucial to progression (though perhaps I am wrong or forgetting something?).
In addition, you'd think that such a precise and wise engineer as the one who designed this island, who supposedly prepared every minute detail of your "path", would have come up with a better method of waste disposal than "giant glaring compost barrel in the middle of the walkway", right? Why didn't one of the letters say "Oh by the way, apologies traveler, but I didn't get around to emptying the sludge trashbins that you'll have to scurry past multiple times...but feel free to add your own slop if you make a mistake, there's plenty of room!" ;) I'm teasing of course, but I would argue it's somewhat out of character (at least as far as I understand the character so far).
Although I'm not yet convinced that my interpretation isn't at least equally reasonable, your response makes me very much inclined to continue playing through. You've made an earnest attempt to discuss and respond to what I've said, and sound quite willing to address merits and facts, which makes me less skeptical (or concerned) regarding what future puzzles might be in the game.
Much appreciated!
I though each line of the graph was saying for example "Xova newj contains 1 part of Jhes and 1 part of Taxh".
So I took 6x Xova newj, thinking that I would have 1 vial of "half Jhes / half Taxh". I did this operation twice (to have 2 vials of "half Jhes / half Taxh") and added 1 Terv and 2 Yen, plus the powders.
I knew that something was wrong (I was wondering "why 6 slots for the flower juicer" ? ), but was unable to think otherwise.
I agree, and I still don't understand what the rules are supposed to be. Can anyone explain it? The guide just says what flowers to use but I would like to see what I'm expected to see in this stupid chart
It was talking about alchemy so I assumed that Taxis, Yen, etc were things extracted from plants. So tseh'xen has 2 jhes, 1 taxs, and 1 yen.
Also, it's clear that the solution has to involve the blanked out plant, because it's conspicuously missing.
This solution isn't possible, because making what's needed for the recipe only requires 3 plants, but... you can just make a double batch. So I added 2 ileha'orev, 2 Xova'newj, 2 Evahr'vars. That gets me the exact components needed for the recipe. Then I added 2 scoops of green, 4 white, and 2 yellow powder.
As TheNextToLastSolstice said is, what's unfortunate is that this leads to a perfect solution, if you want to make a double-batch of crystal remover.
Aside from this, I thought all of the puzzles were pretty straight-forward and intuitive. I just got to the undersea room.
I ended up using the speed berry to complete the drawbridge, which didn't feel like the right solution.
I'm sorry, but TheNextToLastMetroid was correct. YOU'RE the one with a bizarre thought process here. Why would anyone think that this was a recipe to make anything? The much more logical way to interpret it only requires one assumption;
"The list indicates what ingredients can be extracted from each flower."
Given that there is a machine for extraction nearby, and that there is nothing to indicate that the compounds in the main lab are a cocktail of mixed ingredients, that is by far the most reasonable assumption to come to. Any reasonable person would read the chart, and conclude "W, X, and Y can be extracted from Flower Z."
Without any further indicator, no one is going to stumble upon, "This chart contains four recipes." save by chance or desperation.